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tankrandall
12-07-2010, 07:20 PM
I played a game last weekend where the guy used call of the hunt and failed to charge (but got close) Ol' Rowdy who counter charged and critical knocked him down, he then charged with another beast and imprint grudge went off and I critical knocked that one down. Does he still get to teleport the beasts back to EKaya?

We agreed that since it was her ability and not theres that they could but would still be KD.

Brandubh
12-07-2010, 07:29 PM
Hmmm. A few notes:
1 ) Failed charge = end of activation (p 47 Primal).

2 )Call of the Hunt triggers off of at the end of activation.

3 )Counter Charge triggers off of ending movement (which is also when failed charge triggers).

As such, I'd say that he could have triggered his end of activation from the failed charge before counter charge even triggered...which means he could have pulled the warbeast back with call of the hunt before Ol' Rowdy moved.

I could very well be wrong, but as he was the active player, he gets to chose the sequence of simultaneous events (i.e. end of activation and counter charge).

Aetou
12-07-2010, 07:56 PM
Don't you end your movement before you determine whether you have failed the charge or not? If that's the case you would get counter-charged before your activation ends but then yes, you would still be placed by the Feat even if you are KDed.

Brandubh
12-07-2010, 08:11 PM
Charging (p. 47 Primal)

If a charging model ends its charge movement without its charge target in melee range, then it has made a failed charge. If a model makes a failed charge during its activation, its activation immediately ends.

Counter Charge

When an enemy model advances and ends its movement within 6"...

So a failed charge triggers on ending movement and counter charge triggers on ending movement. Since they're multiple effects resolving at the same time, the active player decides.

Also, is there a precedence for "immediately" happening before non-immediate actions? I can't find anything in the rule book about that. But that might pertain here too.

Aetou
12-07-2010, 08:38 PM
Also, is there a precedence for "immediately" happening before non-immediate actions? I can't find anything in the rule book about that. But that might pertain here too.

Both the end-of-activation and Counter-charge say 'immediately' so that doesn't help.

Corpazious
12-07-2010, 10:22 PM
Both the end-of-activation and Counter-charge say 'immediately' so that doesn't help.

If there are two or more effects that trigger at the same time, the active player (whose ever turn it is) chooses the order of effects, so it seems the Placing will occur before the Counter Charge... I think.

vintersbastard
12-08-2010, 02:42 AM
If there are two or more effects that trigger at the same time, the active player (whose ever turn it is) chooses the order of effects, so it seems the Placing will occur before the Counter Charge... I think.

He only gets to choose the order of his effects. AP effects are resolved before IP effects.

Brandubh
12-08-2010, 04:39 AM
He only gets to choose the order of his effects. AP effects are resolved before IP effects.

So the following sequence is correct?
1 ) Warpwolf declares charge and moves.
2 ) Warpwolf ends charge movement out of melee so fails charge - activation ends.
3 ) Call of the Hunt triggers and Warpwolf is placed.
4 ) Ol Rowdy can trigger Counter Charge and can move.

I see how it works in the rules. Step 4 just doesn't make sense as the charge target is no longer there. I suppose the Warpwolf would still have to be in LOS of Ol' Rowdy for him to be able to charge it.

Bladestorm
12-08-2010, 05:58 AM
p. 244. Appendix A.
Add the following to the end of the second paragraph:
At any time two or more abilities are triggered at the same time,
such as “attack hit” or “end activation,” the active player chooses
the order in which abilities on his models resolve, then the inactive
player chooses the order in which abilities on his models resolve.

The key thing for me is that the text refers to choosing which abilities resolve, but ending a model's activation isn't an ability, so there is no choice in the matter, since Counter Charge triggers on ending movement and call of the hunt triggers a step later on the end of the activation, Counter Charge would activate first.

Kenton
12-08-2010, 06:37 AM
So the following sequence is correct?
1 ) Warpwolf declares charge and moves.
2 ) Warpwolf ends charge movement out of melee so fails charge - activation ends.
3 ) Call of the Hunt triggers and Warpwolf is placed.
4 ) Ol Rowdy can trigger Counter Charge and can move.


Possibly, as in the case of a failed charge the end of movement is simultaneous with the end of activation. Therefore by the previous post the active circle player can elect to trigger Call of the Hunt.

I can see some trying to suggest that Ol' Rowdy should still get a counter charge as the condition was satisfied. However as soon as you get to splitting simultaneous actions into an order I think they become effectively sequential. Thus Ol' Rowdy makes an 'air swipe' at the disappearing Warpwolf.

Bladestorm
12-08-2010, 07:19 AM
I see the event/trigger time-line as such:

End movement(1) -> End activation(2)

Counter charge is an ability which triggers at timing step (1)
Call of the hunt is an ability which triggers at timing step (2)

tankrandall
12-08-2010, 06:34 PM
So I guess it wasn't a stupid question...The second warpwolf that charged and got KD...does that get to be placed and is it still KD? Aetou said yes but any one confirm?

Ravir
12-08-2010, 08:01 PM
The placement effect is being done by the feat, not the warpwolf, so there is nothing the warpwolf can do to prevent it. Knocked down or not, it can still be placed. The only thing I can think of would be some sort of "counter-spell" ability that would allow a model to interrupt the warpwolf's activation with a "can't be placed" effect, and I don't know of any that exists.

But yes, if the warpwolf fails it's charge within counter-charge range of something else, that counter-charge triggers on "end of movement".
1. Warpwolf activates, charges, fails charge.
2. Ol Rowdy counter-charges on end-of-movement, knocks down the Warpwolf.
3. Warpwolf ends activation. Feat places KD'd Warpwolf back by Kaya.

As explained, when multiple effects trigger at the same time, the active player chooses priority. However, end of movement happens before end of activation, so the counter-charge happens before the feat placement.