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lurkernot1
01-08-2011, 03:03 AM
Hi, I've asked this question in the TB community before and while I do understand the answers given (thanks guys I appreciate your time and effort) I wanted to post it here for feedback and clarification.

Mulg's animus Runebreaker has three parts: 1) Enemy animi within this model's command range expire. 2) Enemy models cannot cast spells and enemy warbeasts lose there animi while in this model's command range. and 3) Runebreaker lasts for 1 round.

All this seems clear enough at first but when we used it locally everyone I played had the same understanding I did; all aspects last 1 round, never an issue til I post about it and find out different. Now the seemingly plain rules don't seem so plain.

I understand that the current interpretation for part 1 is best described as an instantaneous burst effect and not an aura. But I have trouble accepting that part 1 is not subject to part 3 (just stubborn I guess:D must be my dire troll blood) In my admittedly not so learned opinion part 1 should last 1 round such that if Mulg moved and an enemy model with an active animus came into his command range ( or the enemy moved on its turn and came into Mulg's command range) that enemy's animus should expire.

I throw this out there hoping for the best, it's a 2 fury animus after all and there's a tourney coming up and the local press ganger isn't sure either but will go with the forums/infernals (fingers crossed, need an icon for that) concensus/ruling. Be gentle:D

Riker1990
01-08-2011, 03:49 AM
It says "Enemy animi within this model's...", not "Enemy animi currently within this model's...". I'd say it's an aura.

FerrusManus
01-08-2011, 03:52 AM
1 thing - paragraphs, man, paragraphs. Reading your post is almost painfull.

About the question itself - I always assumed that it's a pulse however now that I read it I realized it says
"Enemy animi within this modelʼs command range expire." instead of
"Enemy animi currently within this modelʼs command range expire."meaning that it's aura and not a pulse.

lurkernot1
01-08-2011, 04:44 AM
Sorry about the post, currently have insomnia and it's early/late. Exciting though as I want it to be an aura but the current leaning is towards pulse. So although I am in agreement with you, we are now simply divided.

The Anders
01-08-2011, 05:22 AM
How can we be divided? It is clear from "Enemy animi within this modelʼs command range expire."that it is an aura.

lurkernot1
01-08-2011, 05:39 AM
Sorry, again no sleep, and am jumping around mentally. I mean "we" from the TB community post I did previously where it was "clear" that it was a pulse. I didn't have the rules savvy to note the lack of the term "currently". That may now make a difference but I was surprised that TB players themselves were the first ones to interpret the wording in a way that significantly limits the animus, hence the query to the rules forum. Glad I did as there is now some grounds for debate!:)

Sorry again, just to be clear The Anders, the issue was not the effect but the duration and as I understand things from this thread, aura means it continues to cause expiration for the full round. If this thread ends up confirming my thoughts I will post a specific query about the game that prompted the rules question in the first place.

...And I will even use paragraphs.! :)

(Though perhaps not correctly.)

Sevwall
01-08-2011, 08:34 AM
I'm almost positive that it is a pulse, but I can't prove it. I'd happily be wrong.

rydiafan
01-08-2011, 08:58 AM
The lack of the word "currently" makes it an aura.

The Anders
01-08-2011, 10:23 AM
No worrys Lurker ;) and grats on it beeing an aura ;)

lurkernot1
01-08-2011, 01:03 PM
While the lgs will not like it, Gottacon will get a reprieve from the assault of eDoomshapers horde of ravening diretrolls lead by Mulg the walking Krielstone=:) (and the crowd goes wild!)

Ravir
01-09-2011, 01:17 PM
It says Runebreaker lasts for a round. Pulses don't last for a round.

lurkernot1
01-09-2011, 01:33 PM
Yeah Ravir, that was my argument in the first place in the TB forum but there were some objections that seem to be mitigated now here! I know I'm happy and will use Runebreaker to it's greatest and (hopefully) intended effect!

joedj
01-09-2011, 05:23 PM
Mulg's animus Runebreaker has three parts: 1) Enemy animi within this model's command range expire. 2) Enemy models cannot cast spells and enemy warbeasts lose there animi while in this model's command range. and 3) Runebreaker lasts for 1 round.


The second part requires the third part, as there is no enemy model spell casting on your turn (that I can think of), so Runebreaker must remain active in the opposing turn.

The third part suggests an aura ("lasts for one round"). But 'within' suggests a pulse effect, as opposed to 'enemy animi within or that enter this model's command range expire' which verifies an aura effect.

I'm still on the fence. As a Trollblood player I hope it's an aura, as a Pressganger (and all around good sport in my games), I'd like to see a ruling.

If it was: "Enemy models cannot cast spells, enemy warbeasts lose there animi, and enemy animi expire while in this model's command range. Runebreaker lasts for one round."
Would it be more apparently an aura?

FerrusManus
01-09-2011, 06:45 PM
It doesn't have word "currently" so it's an aura. Simple as that, no need to reinvent a bicycle.

lurkernot1
01-09-2011, 08:39 PM
While a ruling would be nice, the wording still seems to favour aura as the third sentence says Runebreaker lasts 1 round and the first 2 sentences are the description of what runebreaker is. In addition the description of the effect in the first sentence does not indicate any duration. While I understand that effects take place immediately there is no indication that it there-after ends; in fact the description does the opposite and indicates the effect does indeed last 1 round.

Riker1990
01-10-2011, 02:08 AM
The third part suggests an aura ("lasts for one round"). But 'within' suggests a pulse effect, as opposed to 'enemy animi within or that enter this model's command range expire' which verifies an aura effect.That's unnecessary, because the moment you enter any model's command range you automatically are within that model's command range. No need to repeat oneself.

The Anders
01-10-2011, 04:29 AM
The second part requires the third part, as there is no enemy model spell casting on your turn (that I can think of), so Runebreaker must remain active in the opposing turn.

The third part suggests an aura ("lasts for one round"). But 'within' suggests a pulse effect, as opposed to 'enemy animi within or that enter this model's command range expire' which verifies an aura effect.

I'm still on the fence. As a Trollblood player I hope it's an aura, as a Pressganger (and all around good sport in my games), I'd like to see a ruling.

If it was: "Enemy models cannot cast spells, enemy warbeasts lose there animi, and enemy animi expire while in this model's command range. Runebreaker lasts for one round."
Would it be more apparently an aura?
You are reading way to much in this..

joedj
01-10-2011, 07:34 PM
You are reading way to much in this..
Well "too" much in my case! :D

sepher32
01-10-2011, 10:21 PM
Interesting, I always treated the first part as a pulse. Is there anything else that does that, continuously causes effects to expire? Seems odd for some reason.

lurkernot1
01-10-2011, 10:31 PM
Why odd? I don't know if there is anything else that is similar but does there have to be for this to be an aura?

sepher32
01-10-2011, 10:36 PM
There doesn't have to be but there usually is.

Kenton
01-10-2011, 11:38 PM
There doesn't have to be but there usually is.
It lasts one round so it's an aura.

The way that the first property is described is typical of pulse type effects and this is leading to confusion.

It is commendable that Trollblood players are tending to "play to the worst interpretation". Though I can't see any definitive reason why they should.

Perhaps in Mark III PP can extend the excellent (and unambiguous) use of icons to spell properties? An icon for pulse, aura, upkeep, and so on would simplify this. Though is not needed for the most part.

lurkernot1
01-11-2011, 05:42 PM
Macallan seems to be living on the rules boards the last couple of days, so many locked threads and no answer here. Does this mean anything? Answer too obvious? Question too vague? Hasn't decided how to handle it? I'd like to know. I would of course like to believe I'm right and there certainly is support but in the game there is a tendency to go with might not work trumps might work. Will wait but tourney is on saturday!

Captain Smash
01-16-2011, 06:51 PM
I have a interesting scenario if this in fact an aura. So I have unebreaker up and I have Janissa's Rock wall in front of my army within the runebreaker aura. Now if Molik comes charging across with 'Rush' he'll lose it and the pathfinder it grants before being able to cross the wall thus fail the charge. If I am understanding this right. So instead he tries to go around the wall, he has a 13inch move with rush / 11 inch without, he goes 11 inches is in the aura and loses 'Rush'. So now his movement is 11 inches so his movement is over correct? The arguement was he moves his full 13" is then in the aura and loses it. But if this is true, then he should get to do his full charge over the wall because he started his movement with rush and doesn't lose it til he completes his move in the aura.

At any rate I haven't been playing long enough to sort this mess out. Any suggestion?

Tekanan
01-16-2011, 07:05 PM
I've always interpreted the following:-
"currently in" = pulse
"while/within" = aura

Perhaps this may help?

rydiafan
01-16-2011, 07:08 PM
So instead he tries to go around the wall, he has a 13inch move with rush / 11 inch without, he goes 11 inches is in the aura and loses 'Rush'. So now his movement is 11 inches so his movement is over correct?

Infernals have previously ruled that you check max movement when you start your movement, and it remains that value until movement is complete, regardless of anything that happens during movement.

vintersbastard
01-16-2011, 07:49 PM
Infernals have previously ruled that you check max movement when you start your movement, and it remains that value until movement is complete, regardless of anything that happens during movement.

But whether you move only half distance due to rough terrain is not a matter of maximal movement available, so that doesn't fit here.

(Look at the Inhospitable Ground resolution, for example)

rydiafan
01-16-2011, 08:15 PM
But whether you move only half distance due to rough terrain is not a matter of maximal movement available, so that doesn't fit here.

(Look at the Inhospitable Ground resolution, for example)

He wasn't asking about rough terrain. He was asking about the beast's maximum movement changing from 13 to 11 mid-move.

vintersbastard
01-16-2011, 08:30 PM
He wasn't asking about rough terrain. He was asking about the beast's maximum movement changing from 13 to 11 mid-move.

Oops, you're right. But he apparently would lose Pathfinder as soon as he entered the Cmd range, so the wall would still stop the charge.

quindraco
01-16-2011, 09:16 PM
Macallan seems to be living on the rules boards the last couple of days, so many locked threads and no answer here.

Does he have some sort of authority over rules? I checked his profile, but I couldn't find anything indicating that he was special aside from his moderator status. Since he seemed to be doing a lot of thread necromancy, and the rule against it is in his signature, and he also had a habit of locking any thread he posted in, preventing all further discussion and/or disagreement, I assumed he was a troll with moderator status. Is he actually empowered to declare rulings like that?

rydiafan
01-16-2011, 09:20 PM
Is he actually empowered to declare rulings like that?

That's exactly what he is.

Educate yourself: https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?1767-Welcome-to-the-Rules-Forum

Captain Smash
01-16-2011, 09:20 PM
Okay I accepts he gets the 13" move.

Now as for the charging over the wall (linear obstacle, can only charge over it with pathfinder)
A. He can he charge over the wall since he starter his movement with pathfinder even though he loses it before clearing the wall.
Or
B. Since he loses pathfinder before he clears the wall, his charge stops when he hits the wall?

sepher32
01-16-2011, 09:20 PM
He's an infernal. They are empowered to make official rulings for PP.

rydiafan
01-16-2011, 09:21 PM
Okay I accepts he gets the 13" move.

Now as for the charging over the wall (linear obstacle, can only charge over it with pathfinder)
A. He can he charge over the wall since he starter his movement with pathfinder even though he loses it before clearing the wall.
Or
B. Since he loses pathfinder before he clears the wall, his charge stops when he hits the wall?

Assuming Runebreaker does indeed cause animi to expire constantly, it would be B.

Macallan
01-17-2011, 10:09 AM
The first sentence means "currently within" despite the arguable wording.

sepher32
01-17-2011, 10:12 AM
Hah! I was right my model is not as good as you thought it was.

Hold up, I didn't want to be right.

Tekanan
01-17-2011, 07:20 PM
So it's a pulse?

I'm with sepher32 on this one. :P

lurkernot1
01-17-2011, 09:59 PM
(Sigh) There goes the walking krielstone I was lovin'. (sighs again) Apparently it's a pulse but I'd like to argue that it's a pulse that lasts 1 round:) sorta in an aura-like fashion!

Also there is nothing arguable about the lack of "currently" in the wording. psst (whispers) it's not there.

Digestive
01-18-2011, 01:31 AM
'currently' should be errataed into it, or not?

lurkernot1
01-18-2011, 06:37 AM
I vote not! 2 fury on a Character warbeast. Aura fits!