PDA

View Full Version : Hoarluk Doomshaper feat and enemy warlocks casting spells that cost 2+ fury



ElectricLobster
02-13-2011, 01:31 PM
If an enemy warlock or warcaster casts a spell that takes 3 fury or focus, do they take a combined 3d6 damage, or three individual d6 rolls?

I think the scenario is only relivant for enemy warlocks since they have the option of transferring damage.

FearLord
02-13-2011, 02:03 PM
It would be 3d6 damage - the fury/focus cost is paid at the same time, so the damage would be incurred at the same time.

Dominar Eeyore
02-14-2011, 01:59 PM
It would be 3d6 damage - the fury/focus cost is paid at the same time, so the damage would be incurred at the same time.
I do not believe this is correct. The feat states that you suffer 1d6 damage for each focus/fury spent. It doesnt matter if they are spent all at the same time or not. its individually 1d6 for each focus or fury spent. So if you wanted to transfer the damage you would have to spend 1 fury for each (and subsequently suffer 1d6 each time you transfered).

FearLord
02-14-2011, 03:41 PM
I do not believe this is correct. The feat states that you suffer 1d6 damage for each focus/fury spent. It doesnt matter if they are spent all at the same time or not. its individually 1d6 for each focus or fury spent. So if you wanted to transfer the damage you would have to spend 1 fury for each (and subsequently suffer 1d6 each time you transfered).

The focus points would all be spent at the same time, thus the damage would be applied at the same time.

NmoLvr
02-15-2011, 04:26 AM
Enemy models suffer d6 damage points for each focus or fury point they spend while in Doomshaperʼs control area. Enemy
warbeasts suffer d6 damage points for each fury point they receive as a result of being forced while in Doomshaperʼs control area. If a model is destroyed as a result of this damage while casting a spell or using an animus, the spell or animus does not take effect. If a model is destroyed as a result of this damage while making an attack, the target model suffers no further damage or effects from the attack. Dhuniaʼs Wrath lasts for one round.

I'm with maxsterling here. The repition of the word 'each' causes me to believe there is an individual damage roll for every focus/fury spent.

FerrusManus
02-15-2011, 05:04 AM
The focus points would all be spent at the same time, thus the damage would be applied at the same time.
Yes, the damage is simultaneous, that doesn't necessary mean the rolls are not separate. I'm personally not sure how it should be handled.

lurkernot1
02-15-2011, 07:43 AM
Also good to know for damage application, 3d6 to one spiral or 1d6 to 3 possibly separate spirals.

Dominar Eeyore
02-15-2011, 08:26 AM
The focus points would all be spent at the same time, thus the damage would be applied at the same time.

which part of the feat text leads you to believe this?

Again i must disagree, the feat states that you suffer 1d6 damage for each focus/fury spent.. not 1d6 damage, per focus/fury spent, per expenditure

Thunder_God
02-15-2011, 09:17 AM
When you cast a spell/Animus, you can't spend things in part, you must pay it all in one big lump, or the effect doesn't work.

BTW, this question came up numerous times before, and while no Infernal ever commented, it always was concluded that the answer is as FearLord gave it, even if I just today before hitting the search engine also though the 1d6 multiple times. Hey, it helped seeing me provide the other answer in the past ;)

The description of forcing for an animus clearly says you Force for "X fury".

Dominar Eeyore
02-15-2011, 11:47 AM
When you cast a spell/Animus, you can't spend things in part, you must pay it all in one big lump, or the effect doesn't work.

BTW, this question came up numerous times before, and while no Infernal ever commented, it always was concluded that the answer is as FearLord gave it, even if I just today before hitting the search engine also though the 1d6 multiple times. Hey, it helped seeing me provide the other answer in the past ;)

The description of forcing for an animus clearly says you Force for "X fury".

I still have to humbly disagree. The feat doesnt have anything to do with spellcasting or forcing. It has to do with gaining or spending fury. So using rules for spellcasting or forcing to back up your point of how the feat should work seems flawed.



Enemy models suffer d6 damage points for each focus or fury point they spend while in Doomshaper's control area. Enemy warbeasts suffer d6 damage points for each fury point they receive as a result of being forced while in Doomshaper's control area.


D6 for each focus or fury they spend.. thats it.. there is no language that says you combine the D6 if the fury of focus expenditure is the result of a spell

And again D6 damage for each fury point they receive as a result of being forced.. the damage doesnt come from the force it comes from the gain of fury.. and it says you take 1d6 per fury received.

It seems clear to me that the damage is a result of each individual focus or fury. Each individually is a source of damage and causes 1d6 damage.

When you say it "always" was concluded you make it sound like there is a long history of rulings on this topic, but when i search I only find 1 topic:
https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?40240-Dhunia-s-Wrath-and-Warbeasts

and neither of you seemed very certain in that thread either.

Ill leave it at that as I have no more to say on the topic and feel like the text stands on its own.

petegrrrr
02-15-2011, 12:09 PM
Yes, but the rules for SPELLS and ANIMI dictate that the fury is spent at the same time.

So since the feat says "take a d6 for every focus/fury spent", you go by the way the focus is being spent for the timing of the damage. In the case of a spell, which uses the focus/fury all at once by the rules of how spells work, you would then take that damage all at once.

The feat just dictates a new effect to spending focus or fury. The actual expenditure of focus and fury dictates the timing, and in this case (spells, animi), that timing is all at once.

Dominar Eeyore
02-15-2011, 12:26 PM
I'm not arguing that the damage wouldn't be simultaneous, I'm arguing that you would receive, in this case, 3 X D6 damage instead of 3D6

petegrrrr
02-15-2011, 12:37 PM
It would be quite possibly the only example of an effect granting d6's/damage dice that did not combine with each other. That is why I would rule it as 3d6, and not a d6 3 times. I can see the arguement for the other side though.

Thunder_God
02-15-2011, 03:21 PM
Well, remembered more, but here's another one:
https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?1778-pHoarluk-s-feat-and-Transferes&highlight=doomshaper

Kenton
02-16-2011, 12:01 AM
Yes, but the rules for SPELLS and ANIMI dictate that the fury is spent at the same time.

So since the feat says "take a d6 for every focus/fury spent", you go by the way the focus is being spent for the timing of the damage. In the case of a spell, which uses the focus/fury all at once by the rules of how spells work, you would then take that damage all at once.

The feat just dictates a new effect to spending focus or fury. The actual expenditure of focus and fury dictates the timing, and in this case (spells, animi), that timing is all at once.

+1

Each spell cast is a discrete event. You pay for each event. I can't recall any instance where part way through an event things happen. All the focus is spent simultaneously therefore so should the damage be applied.

Dominar Eeyore
02-16-2011, 08:32 AM
+1

Each spell cast is a discrete event. You pay for each event. I can't recall any instance where part way through an event things happen. All the focus is spent simultaneously therefore so should the damage be applied.

no one is arguing that the damage isn't applied simultaneously

petegrrrr
02-16-2011, 08:41 AM
If the damage is applied simultaneously, then you would take the 3d6 at once. I thought you were very much arguing that that was not the case?

Simultaneous damage happens at the same time, which means all the damage is taken at once, and you would roll 3d6. It's also the far simpler way of doing it, which is why I tend to think that is how its meant to work.

blue loki
02-16-2011, 09:34 AM
If the damage is applied simultaneously, then you would take the 3d6 at once. I thought you were very much arguing that that was not the case?

He is arguing that you are taking three distinctly separate yet simultaneous damage rolls of d6 each. In which case you would need to transfer each roll independently if you wanted to transfer (3 fury to transfer it all).

As opposed to taking one single damage roll of 3d6 and being able to transfer it all away at once via one fury point.

Just because the multiple d6 are applied simultaneously does not mean that all d6 are combined into a single instance of suffering damage. I could be mistaken, but I think that's the point.

petegrrrr
02-16-2011, 09:41 AM
right, but I'm saying that I cannot think of another example where a single trigger leads to multiple damage dice that are not combined.

Kenton
02-16-2011, 10:53 AM
no one is arguing that the damage isn't applied simultaneously

Actually that's precisely what treating 3 d6 as 3 separate events is doing. If the damage is received simultaneously then it can be transferred as a single event. Perhaps this is overly simplistic for some but 3d6 of damage from the same source, triggered by the same event at the same time are usually considered the same. There is one event, one trigger. I completely agree that if a caster were to spend 1, then 2 and then 3 fury that they should take 6d6 in 3 events (1, 2 and 3d6 respectively).


If the damage is applied simultaneously, then you would take the 3d6 at once. I thought you were very much arguing that that was not the case?

Simultaneous damage happens at the same time, which means all the damage is taken at once, and you would roll 3d6. It's also the far simpler way of doing it, which is why I tend to think that is how its meant to work.

Exactly the point that I clearly failed to make effectively.


I cannot think of another example where a single trigger leads to multiple damage dice that are not combined.

Nor can I.

Dominar Eeyore
02-16-2011, 12:24 PM
Perhaps this is overly simplistic for some but 3d6 of damage from the same source, triggered by the same event at the same time are usually considered the same. There is one event, one trigger.

This is the part im arguing against.. There isnt a single source, there isnt one event, there isnt one trigger. Everyone seems to be arguing that the spell being cast is the trigger. Its not. The trigger is each fury spent.. so its in fact three triggers all happening simultaneously. Each fury spent causes 1d6 damage. Each fury is its own source. This is how the feat text reads. Not that it triggers on a spell cast and causes 1d6 per fury spent.



right, but I'm saying that I cannot think of another example where a single trigger leads to multiple damage dice that are not combined.

Can you think of another trigger that causes multiple damage dice at all? This isnt a POW + Dice roll. Its direct damage. As far as i know there is no other trigger in the game that causes multiple damage dice like this would if it were a single trigger. So using that as your basis for reasoning seems flawed.


Here is another example of fury being spent simultaneously where im sure you would all agree that its 3 X 1D6
An opposing Trolls player has his axer do a thresher attack vs 3 models in his front arc boosting the attack rolls vs each model. The three fury are being spent in what timing wise is considered simultaneous. Would the Axer take 3D6 or 3 X 1D6?
I contend again that the three triggers (each fury spent) cause 3 separate D6 damage rolls.

FearLord
02-16-2011, 12:51 PM
Attacks are distinct - spell cost is not. Thresher is clear in that makes distinct attacks with all that implies - a spell is cast all at once - there is no separation of how the focus is spent - 3 focus is spent as a trigger - 3d6 damage is taken. 3 Thresher attacks are made simultaneously - 3 distinct focus are spent - 3 x 1d6 damage are taken.

Dominar Eeyore
02-16-2011, 12:59 PM
if the feat said for each focus expenditure instead of each focus spent i would agree with that.

FearLord
02-16-2011, 01:04 PM
if the feat said for each focus expenditure instead of each focus spent i would agree with that.

I cannot cast a 3 focus spell only partially - I can only spend all focus at once.

Dominar Eeyore
02-16-2011, 01:07 PM
I cannot cast a 3 focus spell only partially - I can only spend all focus at once.

im not sure how that matters at all in this situation? The trigger is each focus spent. You spent 3 focus causing the trigger to go off three times.

Kenton
02-16-2011, 01:12 PM
im not sure how that matters at all in this situation? The trigger is each focus spent. You spent 3 focus causing the trigger to go off three times.

Actually the trigger is the casting of the spell. The amount is one d6 for each focus spent.

So one trigger. One damage roll. Amount determined by the magnitude of the trigger.

Dominar Eeyore
02-16-2011, 01:19 PM
Actually the trigger is the casting of the spell. The amount is one d6 for each focus spent.

So one trigger. One damage roll. Amount determined by the magnitude of the trigger.



Dhunia's Wrath
Enemy models suffer d6 damage points for each focus or fury point they spend while in Doomshaperʼs control area. Enemy warbeasts suffer d6 damage points for each fury point they receive as a result of being forced while in Doomshaperʼs control area. If a model is destroyed as a result of this damage while casting a spell or using an animus, the spell or animus does not take effect. If a model is destroyed as a result of this damage while making an attack, the target model suffers no further damage or effects from the attack. Dhuniaʼs Wrath lasts for one round.

The feat only mentions spellcasting when it concerns finishing the cast after destruction of the caster. The trigger is each focus or fury point spent.

petegrrrr
02-16-2011, 03:14 PM
Forsaken bomb.

It does a d6 damage for every fury point on a model, worded in almost exactly the same way "for each fury on the model.."

The d6's are all rolled at once.

That's what I am going off of.

Both trigger a d6 for each number of fury/focus. I would treat their damage the same way.

EDIT* The mechanic is not identical, as the bomb adds the dice to a damage roll, but it does illustrate another example of combining damage dice gained off the same trigger.

Kenton
02-16-2011, 04:24 PM
The feat only mentions spellcasting when it concerns finishing the cast after destruction of the caster. The trigger is each focus or fury point spent.

No. Because if I cast a 3 fury spell I never spend 1 fury to trigger a 1 d6 roll. I only ever spend 3. Still one trigger, 1 roll.

I understand your position, I simply believe you're reading more into the language than is there. The Forsaken example and lack of a) any supporting example or b) any other supporting posts suggests that you may be incorrect.

Malkav13
02-17-2011, 06:05 AM
The way I read it, this is a situation where you have multiple simulataneous events happening at once. When casting a spell you have to pay all of the fury at once. In this instance, 3 fury. Doomshapers feat then looks at what you just did and assigns you d6 damage 3 times. This damage will be done in 3 seperate rolls that could be transfered 3 times. However, timing wise for abilities and other affects, the damage is considered to be occuring at the same time.

Kenton
02-17-2011, 06:24 AM
The way I read it, this is a situation where you have multiple simulataneous events happening at once. When casting a spell you have to pay all of the fury at once. In this instance, 3 fury. Doomshapers feat then looks at what you just did and assigns you d6 damage 3 times. This damage will be done in 3 seperate rolls that could be transfered 3 times. However, timing wise for abilities and other affects, the damage is considered to be occuring at the same time.

On what basis?

NmoLvr
02-17-2011, 06:41 AM
I've been following this thread and I'm still with maxsterling. As I said before, the repitition of the word 'each' in the wording of the feat indicates to me that every individual fury/focus spent causes a 1d6 damage roll. When I read the feat, I see a distinct penalty for each focus/fury spent, not a grouped penalty after using more than one. My conclusion is the same as that of Malkav13.

I know it isn't worth much in this context, but for the record my LGS always played it this way.

This has been a very good question. I like to see a civil debate every now and then. I feel we all learn from it. :)

petegrrrr
02-17-2011, 07:15 AM
There is a distinct penalty for each focus spent. But since focus used by casting a spell is spent at the same time, the damage triggers simultaneously, and damage that occurs for a single source (the feat) simultaneously is always combined, as far as I can tell.

It is not multiple simultaneous events. It is one trigger: the Feat. The word "Each" does not dictate the timing of the damage at all. Purely from a grammatical stance, it just modifies the terms "focus/fury", letting you know what triggers the feat and how much is triggered. The other definition does not really fit with the words on the page.

But like I said, while I disagree with your interpretation as reading too far into the wording, I do understand where you are coming from.

Cloud-Gatherer
02-23-2011, 09:44 AM
I'm with petegrrrr - spending the focus/fury is a single, discrete event that triggers a single, discrete effect. For the feat to trigger multiple times (thereby causing multiple 1D6 damage rolls), each focus/fury spent would have to be a separate event, and it's just not. The "each" used in the text of Dhunia's Wrath describes magnitude, not separation.

Look at the spell Eliminator: "Immediately after this attack is resolved, this model can advance up to 2" for each enemy model destroyed by the attack." The text of the spell says "each," but you wouldn't argue that Vyros (or whoever else has the spell) has to advance in 2" increments, ending his movement (and possibly triggering other effects) each time before moving on to the next two inches, would you?

Or, for an even more directly-related possibility, look at Velocity, which is a single spell, limited to one casting per turn, with a variable cost. Does Epic Stryker have to stop to check "end movement" triggers between 2" increments of advance? If "each" carries the power you (maxsterling and NmoLvr) say it does, that's exactly how you'd have to play it, and I think we can all agree that's not how it works. The fact that Dhunia's Wrath deals with damage and not movement is irrelevant, because you're hanging your whole argument on the word "each," and in this case I don't think it means what you think it means.

Maudlin
02-24-2011, 10:03 PM
When you spend focus/fury to cast a spell, the total cost is spent only once.

Tekanan
02-24-2011, 10:45 PM
If I read that correctly, a FOC 3 costed spell would mean a 3d6 dmg that can only be transferred once (not 3 times in a separate manner)?

Maudlin
02-25-2011, 07:16 AM
Yes, you spend 3 focus at once, and take 3d6 damage.

If it were an offensive spell, and you boost the attack roll, that would be 3d6 damage and then 1d6 damage, as boosting is separate from paying the cost to cast a spell, and so on.