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Legrasse
05-18-2011, 09:39 AM
eMagnus' theme states that he can take up to one Defender heavy warjack. Triumph is a Defender heavy warjack. Since there's no non-character caveat, can eMags take Triumph?

Alviaran
05-18-2011, 09:44 AM
Are you sure Triumph is labeled as a Defender? I do not have a Triumph card, but to my knowledge, no character jacks have ever listed what kind of character they are. Such as Nightmare, who is obviously a character Slayer, is only listed as "Cryx Character Helljack". Does Triumph really have a "Defender" printed anywhere on his card?

DarkLegacy
05-18-2011, 09:46 AM
Are you sure Triumph is labeled as a Defender? I do not have a Triumph card, but to my knowledge, no character jacks have ever listed what kind of character they are. Such as Nightmare, who is obviously a character Slayer, is only listed as "Cryx Character Helljack". Does Triumph really have a "Defender" printed anywhere on his card?

I'm with Alviaran on this. If "Defender" does not appear on Triumph's card, it is not a Defender for the Bad Seeds Theme Force.

Cloud-Gatherer
05-18-2011, 09:50 AM
Triumph is indeed a Character Defender Heavy Warjack. He has to be, so he can satisfy Siege's requirement for two Defenders.

DarkLegacy
05-18-2011, 09:53 AM
Huh. That's different and interesting.

Alviaran
05-18-2011, 10:15 AM
Triumph is indeed a Character Defender Heavy Warjack. He has to be, so he can satisfy Siege's requirement for two Defenders.

Interesting. Then I'm not seeing anything that says you can't take him. It isn't clear enough to be non-character Defender warjacks.

Huh.

Mod_Redphantasm
05-18-2011, 10:15 AM
Triumph is a defender warjack and counts as such for Siege's theme. However, what allows him to be fielded in Siege's theme list in the first place is the "special issue" rule on his card. I don't have the exact wording at the moment but I believe this rule prevents Triumph from being run in a Bad Seeds list.

Cloud-Gatherer
05-18-2011, 10:29 AM
Triumph is a defender warjack and counts as such for Siege's theme. However, what allows him to be fielded in Siege's theme list in the first place is the "special issue" rule on his card. I don't have the exact wording at the moment but I believe this rule prevents Triumph from being run in a Bad Seeds list.

Nope. There is no general restriction against character models in theme forces. "Special Issue" was necessary for Triumph, Torch, and whatever the PoM one is called because their casters' theme forces only allowed non-character jacks. Bad Seeds does not include any such restriction.

That said, this has got to be an oversight - that, or Siege is secretly Magnus's pal and occasionally loans him his custom Defender.

Legrasse
05-18-2011, 10:39 AM
Nope. There is no general restriction against character models in theme forces. "Special Issue" was necessary for Triumph, Torch, and whatever the PoM one is called because their casters' theme forces only allowed non-character jacks. Bad Seeds does not include any such restriction.

That said, this has got to be an oversight - that, or Siege is secretly Magnus's pal and occasionally loans him his custom Defender.

I just figured that Siege left it gathering dust in the garage for so long that he'd never really notice if Magnus took it out for a spin. If he did he'd probably just assume Kara had it.

MarneusBigFists
05-18-2011, 11:00 AM
Everyone knows Siege does a little bussiness on the side. Maybe we could get an Infernal answer on this?

SpiralingCadaver
05-18-2011, 12:19 PM
Just to add to this, the wording on Siege's T4 (…Defender warjack…), which is presumably why there's the "Defender" descriptor, is functionally identical to Bad Seeds' wording (…Defender heavy warjack…), so I don't think it's a matter of interpretation, but eratta or not, and I think this would be the first time PP modified something to not be allowed, when it previously was.

(For instance, Magnus' Agenda (mkI) was eratta'd repeatedly to allow steelheads, then idrians, though Midwinter and Orrick were allowed b/c of wording on the cards, and Highborn was changed to get cygnar and trollblood models, but nothing's gotten more restrictive.)

FearLord
05-18-2011, 01:24 PM
Magnus is welcome to Triumph...

But seriously, I'd assume this to be a mistake, but one that works (for now...)

SpiralingCadaver
05-18-2011, 01:48 PM
In a theme list with access to 9 warjacks, a tenth is nice, and Magnus actually meshes pretty well with Triumph, so, while no one is saying Triumph is great, I really hope that this stays legal, and hope that this strange but useful fluke doesn't break the trend of PP's reluctance to post errata.

Along with Highborn using ATGMs as ARGMs, it would be nice for Magnus to count Triumph as his crazy customized Defender.

Lanz
05-18-2011, 01:51 PM
So really, the real reason Triumph exists, is not so Cygnar players can complain about it, it's so Mercs get a third character 'jack in Wrath, so that Magnus can use it with his Renegades.

IMO, Magnus had those Sword Knights swipe it on their way out.

FearLord
05-18-2011, 02:20 PM
Presumably, its a trap created by Siege to catch Magnus - he designed a Jack so terrible that nobody could win with it, then sent triple agent Cygnarians to bring it to Magnus and then lured him into battle - when Triumph does its thing (i.e is lame) and Siege bags himself Magnus

Dvortus
05-18-2011, 02:34 PM
I'm going to say that I really hope this stands, mostly because I'd actually like to use Triumph in my eMagnus list.
I guess poor Triumph kept getting shipped back and forth between Sloan and Siege, neither of them actually wanted him, that eventually he found a new home with the true Cygnarans.

Lanz
05-18-2011, 02:42 PM
Presumably, its a trap created by Siege to catch Magnus - he designed a Jack so terrible that nobody could win with it, then sent triple agent Cygnarians to bring it to Magnus and then lured him into battle - when Triumph does its thing (i.e is lame) and Siege bags himself Magnus

Except Magnus is a genius mechanic, so Triumph will automatically be good with him.

raincaller
05-18-2011, 02:48 PM
Except Magnus is a genius mechanic, so Triumph will automatically be good with him.
he would turn it into a really big renegade, then it would be playable.

Space Donkey
05-18-2011, 02:49 PM
RaW Triumph is completely playable in Bad Seeds and I love it. What I'm going to hate is the impending errata to restrict Magnus to non-character jacks, simultaneously stripping him of Triumph, and potentially Rociante.

SpiralingCadaver
05-18-2011, 03:25 PM
Well, Rocinante (sp?) is coming out in the same cycle as the Rover and Damiano's theme list, so there's little chance that there will be the awkward classification like with "Defender," which is really just a way of PP covering the Siege theme list after the fact (an erratum to the theme list would have been easier, in my opinion, than that descriptor, assuming there's no support ability that states "friendly defenders warjacks" or some such nonsense). However, yes, I assume that, unless PP decides to throw Magnus a bone, it will be errata'd, "non-character Defender"

Legrasse
05-18-2011, 05:25 PM
I hope they let us keep him, he synergies well with Magnus, which why I'm hoping it was intentional: it's a really well built theme list. He fills a needed role and isn't overpowered. Think of him as a Magnus modified Defender. Mercs will give him a good home.

BlueSkies
05-18-2011, 05:30 PM
I see ppl mentioning that Triumph counts as a Defneder for Siege's tier benefit, but was that clarified by an Infernal?

If so, can someone link that?
Thank you.

Cloud-Gatherer
05-18-2011, 05:45 PM
I see ppl mentioning that Triumph counts as a Defneder for Siege's tier benefit, but was that clarified by an Infernal?

If so, can someone link that?
Thank you.

Why would it need to be clarified by an Infernal? It's right there on his card. That's like asking for Infernal clarification that Asphyxious is a Cryx Warcaster, or that Eiryss, Mage Hunter of Ios is a Mage Hunter (sadly, I know the latter of those has actually happened with some frequency).

SpiralingCadaver
05-18-2011, 06:19 PM
Good examples, Cloud-Gatherer.

MarneusBigFists
05-18-2011, 08:09 PM
I refuse to believe PP is starting to make GW style mistakes, so I'll assume it's legal.

Pink Foam!
05-18-2011, 08:42 PM
Maybe Doug Seacat just wanted Magnus to steal Triumph even though the rest of the PP writing staff didn't want it to happen?

Score one for Mercenaries

John of Arc
05-18-2011, 09:11 PM
Magnus stole it. It wasn't exactly hard, they still haven't noticed he's missing. Triumph is much happier with this new arrangement; he finally feels appreciated.

Dvortus
05-18-2011, 09:15 PM
Magnus stole it. It wasn't exactly hard, they still haven't noticed he's missing. Triumph is much happier with this new arrangement; he finally feels appreciated.

That's sort of how I feel, it's like Sloan and Siege got divorced and neither of them wanted custody of poor little Triumph. So they shipped him back and forth constantly till he got fed up and went to live with Uncle Magnus.

SpiralingCadaver
05-18-2011, 10:41 PM
Maybe it's a hint for Wrath. Nothing's ever pointed to Siege being anything other than a soldier fiercely loyal to Cygnar: Maybe in Wrath, he sides with Magnus, thinking the kingdom needs Magnus to run the show properly. Maybe he's one of the shady background folk that's supplying Magnus' army. There are a lot of trenchers and rangers in it already (another similarity with Siege's theme list! He lets Magnus borrow them, and the actual erratum will be allowing Finn in the list, as well (you heard it here first!)).

Or, y'know, maybe it's a mistake that will get fixed.

Razhem
05-19-2011, 12:04 AM
Stinks of screw up and frankly, why oh why would you ever bother getting Triumph when you could get a standard Defender? I know you poor mercs feel like faction choices are the bomb, but it's still an 11 point train wreck :p

JacobtheAussie
05-19-2011, 01:11 AM
I'm currently leaning towards it being intentional. T1 of Bad Seeds could have easily stated "Non-Character Chargers etc"
PP are pretty good at future proofing their rules

vytzka
05-19-2011, 02:04 AM
Stinks of screw up and frankly, why oh why would you ever bother getting Triumph when you could get a standard Defender? I know you poor mercs feel like faction choices are the bomb, but it's still an 11 point train wreck :p
Because it lets us say "Hey Cygnar player, remember being a baby about this jack and crying that you would prefer an empty page in your book than this? Well I just shot your caster to death with it. GG."

We Mercenaries are a spiteful bunch.

P.S. Still waiting for those Cephalyx, PP.

Lanz
05-19-2011, 03:33 AM
Stinks of screw up and frankly, why oh why would you ever bother getting Triumph when you could get a standard Defender? I know you poor mercs feel like faction choices are the bomb, but it's still an 11 point train wreck :p

Because as soon as it passes into merc hands it will become amazing, like everything else that passes into merc hands. Then Cygnar will want it back, and it will be garbage in their lists.

katadder
05-19-2011, 03:58 AM
lol so mercs get both cygnar character jacks from wrath :D not that we care if you take triumph, saves us the cost of filling him with coal.

vytzka
05-19-2011, 05:05 AM
Because as soon as it passes into merc hands it will become amazing, like everything else that passes into merc hands. Then Cygnar will want it back, and it will be garbage in their lists.
Haha that's pretty cruel.

Gunmages still work, though. About the only thing I can think of.

Halfhoot
05-19-2011, 06:28 AM
Because it lets us say "Hey Cygnar player, remember being a baby about this jack and crying that you would prefer an empty page in your book than this? Well I just shot your caster to death with it. GG."

... as opposed to... the Defender doing the exact same thing? :D I guess if you rolled exactly what you needed to hit then you could gloat. None of our casters are stealth though so... *shrug* Why'd you pay two more again? :D

MagnustheJust
05-19-2011, 06:33 AM
I firmly believe this was just an oversight, and will be reluctantly be given an errata
soon.


Stinks of screw up and frankly, why oh why would you ever bother getting Triumph when you could get a standard Defender? I know you poor mercs feel like faction choices should be bombed, but it's still an 11 point train wreck :p

Fixed that for yah!! ;) :p :p

Legrasse
05-19-2011, 08:23 AM
... as opposed to... the Defender doing the exact same thing? :D I guess if you rolled exactly what you needed to hit then you could gloat. None of our casters are stealth though so... *shrug* Why'd you pay two more again? :D

Bad Seeds Magnus in particular plays a ranged assassin list. Stealth is the bane of his existence. Triumph normally has trouble getting arcane precision off because he has to aim. If you don't move close enough to the enemy caster, they can just walk out of his range. If you move close enough so they can't walk out, you're liable to get engaged by something. But Magnus' feat fixes both of these problems. You can pin the enemy so they can only move laterally, keeping them from engaging or retreating far enough to be safe. The shield is good also, because the feat buys you an extra turn to shoot things, so the only danger to Triumph is other ranged. He's actually quite good with eMags.

Macallan
05-19-2011, 08:26 AM
This is the rules forum guys.

SpiralingCadaver
05-20-2011, 01:16 PM
Just checking, is this being checked internally and the other posts just deleted b/c they were off topic, or was the general consensus correct?

Macallan
05-24-2011, 03:25 AM
Triumph cannot be taken in Bad Seeds.