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Fish76
05-20-2011, 04:59 AM
This is a corollary question to the post "knight exemplar vs Field of Talons"

So, 3 KE move during FoT, they take the damage sequentially not all at once, so as they are disabled their brothers down the line get improved ARM. Now what my opponent did last night, and I'm fairly sure this is incorrect, was roll the damage in reverse order of how I moved. I allowed it, because we're related and he can get a little indignant, but the result (as was his stated intent) was the KE killed by the roll was in melée range while one of his brothers, with higher ARM survived but was not in melée range. Arguably, this was the pivotal point in the game, as I had the chance there to end the Old Witch, before his Behemoth launched another (and final) round of arcing shots at Sevvy.

I'm pretty sure that he should not have been allowed to choose the order, kindly verify that for me.

Kommissar Golovko
05-20-2011, 05:13 AM
You kill in sequence. One model moves, it takes damage. Next model moves, it takes damage against its improved armor value. Rinse and repeat.

Fish76
05-20-2011, 05:41 AM
Thanks for the help!

msteelers
05-20-2011, 05:59 AM
Indignant? How dare you sir. Prepare for the full might of my righteous indignation!

Remember that we had two rule questions, and the way we handled it was a compromise. We weren't sure whether or not Field of Talons would result as a simultaneous attack or if it was sequential. We agreed to include the ARM bonus as if it was sequential, but allow me to choose the order like it was simultaneous. Also, you left out that you did have one Knight left alive in melee range, who whiffed on the attack.

I would have dropped it, but you called me indignant and a cheater (probably). So I blew dust off of the old Prime MKII book to look and see whether or not a unit moves individually or simultaneously.

Appendix A: Timing, Prime page 244.

6. The model makes its normal movement.
7. Resolve effects that occur at end of normal movement.
8. If activating a unit, repeat steps 6 and 7 for all troopers, then resolve effects that occur at end of unit's movement.

I read that to mean that Field of Talons doesn't come into play until you move all of the models in that unit. And if I can select the order for blast damage targets, why can't I select the order here?

Fish76
05-20-2011, 06:06 AM
Interesting thought, I don't believe I did call you a cheater, in public. I have to at least appear like I am working during the day, so I can't pull out the rules but I believe that order of actions is superseded by the "immediate" in the feat description.

Also, I only called you "indignant" because I thought "petulant man-child" was insulting.

NmoLvr
05-20-2011, 06:15 AM
Field of Talons resolves after each model's normal movement, not at the end of the unit's movement. It happens at step 7, not step 8.

msteelers
05-20-2011, 06:19 AM
Interesting thought, I don't believe I did call you a cheater, in public.

I just assumed you did. I don't actually read what you write or listen to what you say. ;)

Unrelated, but that is the worst wink smiley I have ever seen... My apologies for using it, but that's my go to method of implying sarcasm and jest.


I have to at least appear like I am working during the day, so I can't pull out the rules but I believe that order is superseded by the "immediate" in the fest description.

It very well could be, but if the intention of Step 8 is to say that all models in a unit move simultaneously then I don't think it does.

Ignacious
05-20-2011, 06:37 AM
Seems like two issues here. One is whether or not units activate/move individually or as a unit. The other is when the effect from the feat happens.


Troopers do not activate individually. Instead, the entire unit activates at once. When a unit begins its activation, every trooper in it activates.
So we know that the unit at least ACTIVATES as one. Now here comes the problem. I cannot find reference for movement with units, but I am 99.9[repeating]% sure that each model moves individually, as, again without reference, models in the same unit can block each other. Extrapolating from there:


While in the Old Witch's control area, enemy models cannot run, charge, or make special attacks. Enemy models that advance and end their movement in hte Old Witch's control area immediately suffer an unboostable POW 14 damage roll. Field of Tallons lasts for one round.

The feat specifically mentions model movement, not unit movement, so (in my interpretation) the effect happens at step 7, before step 8 happens. Step 8 doesn't (or in my mind, shoudn't) take place before step 7, it's just if the effect is for the unit, not model.

If someone could clarify that models in a unit start and end movement individually in the unit activation, preferably with rulebook reference, I'm pretty sure that would seal the deal on this one.

~Iggy~

Mod_Redphantasm
05-20-2011, 06:44 AM
Field of Talons damages models that Advance and End their movement within the affected area. The unit activating has nothing to do with it. Models in a unit move sequentially, and each model will take damage after it ends it's movement.

So, given three exemplars in the area of the feat: A, B, and C. They all activate. A advances, ends his movement and takes damage. B then gains an armor bonus due to bond of brotherhood, advances, moves, then takes damage. The same thing happens with C.

You are not resolving a simultaneous effect because the movement of models in the unit is not simultaneous.

msteelers
05-20-2011, 06:56 AM
You are not resolving a simultaneous effect because the movement of models in the unit is not simultaneous.

Very good. So when does Step 8 come into play? Are there spells and effects that specifically mention unit movement over model movement?

vintersbastard
05-20-2011, 07:09 AM
Very good. So when does Step 8 come into play? Are there spells and effects that specifically mention unit movement over model movement?

There are, e.g. Pursuit.