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Mercykiller
01-16-2010, 12:14 AM
Okay, so the rules state thus:

"A knocked down model can stand up at the start of its next activation unless it was knocked down during its controller's turn; in that case it cannot stand up until its controller's next turn even if it has not activated yet."

Clear and concise. It goes on to say how a model that cannot be knocked down still has to forfeit movement or action if it was knocked down on its controller's turn.

But ...

eIrusk's feat states: "Affected models currently knocked down immediately stand up."

Note that nowhere in the knockdown rules do they state that a non-Steady model has to forfeit its movement or action, just that they don't get to stand up this turn. But what if eIrusk's feat stands them up? Can they then activate normally? It seems like they can, based on the rules, for they have been stood up by someone else.

I ran this by my local PGer and he thinks that the "cannot stand" overrides eIrusk's feat, but I've seen quite a few people around here say otherwise. Which is it?

DemonCalibre
01-16-2010, 01:56 AM
Abilities that stand models up Irusk2 Feat, or things like Kraye's Feat

Will stand up models knocked down in the same turn, The statement can't get up, is for them forfeiting their pieces of their activations. You will notice that Reveille has specific wording to prevent this.

Gorbad
01-16-2010, 03:46 AM
Kraye's feat now states that it only works on models that wasn't knocked down this turn.

vintersbastard
01-16-2010, 06:37 AM
Last sentences of the Knockdown rules:

Some special rules allow a model to stand up. In that case, the model may stand up even if it was knocked down during the current player's turn.
I hope this clears it up.

Pat Thompson
01-16-2010, 07:23 AM
I'd be curious as to the result of this...

Last night my mate (using Kraye) used a Cyclone to throw Old Rowdy at one of ESorscha's retinue. Kraye then moved, popped feat and Rowdy then proceeded to hit ESorscha (he didn't kill her and I exacted revenge next turn by one shotting Kraye :D) however i was curious as to whether we played it right.

His case was that Kraye's feat over rules the "rules".

Is this right as i can see the same trick being used in an EIrusk list.

*** edit - just read the post above! ***

whats82
01-16-2010, 09:52 AM
Kraye's feat now states that it only works on models that wasn't knocked down this turn.

From faction deck ? Darn, slightly nerf. :)

Gorbad
01-16-2010, 10:02 AM
Yeah, that's from Kraye's card.

Mercykiller
01-16-2010, 11:25 AM
So eIrusk is one of the few remaining casters that can pull this old trick off?

Very Awesome.

*cue evil laugh* This was always my one "tricky bit" back in Mk1 that I pulled out of my hat when I had to or when a caster was exposed. Throwing and Energizer means I have sweet unseen threat ranges hehe. I'd thought it was gone for Mk2, but having it back feels good ... and slightly naughty :D

Pat Thompson
01-16-2010, 12:25 PM
So eIrusk is one of the few remaining casters that can pull this old trick off?

Very Awesome.

*cue evil laugh* This was always my one "tricky bit" back in Mk1 that I pulled out of my hat when I had to or when a caster was exposed. Throwing and Energizer means I have sweet unseen threat ranges hehe. I'd thought it was gone for Mk2, but having it back feels good ... and slightly naughty :D


:D hhhmmmm... Spriggan (under bond so no KD), plus energiser, plus charge, plus reach = 6" + 3" + 7" + 2" = 18" threat....

...hhhhmmmmm (more!) Throw in Artiface of Deviation to move through a model screen / terrain or feat buffs to ignore forests gives a very nice, long surprise attack run (3 focus for Energiser, 3 for AoD (possibly) plus 1 for charging...may leave eIrusk a little exposed but it'd be a nice surprise! :D

vintersbastard
01-16-2010, 12:42 PM
:D hhhmmmm... Spriggan (under bond so no KD), plus energiser, plus charge, plus reach = 6" + 3" + 7" + 2" = 18" threat....

...hhhhmmmmm (more!) Throw in Artiface of Deviation to move through a model screen / terrain or feat buffs to ignore forests gives a very nice, long surprise attack run (3 focus for Energiser, 3 for AoD (possibly) plus 1 for charging...may leave eIrusk a little exposed but it'd be a nice surprise! :D

You don't want to throw the bonded jack, because that one won't be able to charge due to the throw rules on not being knocked down by the throw.

Nonetheless, this doesn't belong in this thread anymore, as there's no rules question involved.

Mercykiller
01-16-2010, 12:45 PM
My PGer would like an official "red or purple" name on the thread to weigh in before he allows me to use it on the local scene. Until then I fear he'll rule against me using the technique :(

Hjelmen0
01-16-2010, 12:54 PM
So the rule quoted directly from the rulebook by vintersbastard isn't enough? ooook

Mercykiller
01-16-2010, 05:36 PM
He thinks it doesn't mean what we think it means ... specifically, he thinks it means the model still forfeits its activation even though it has been stood up /shrug

whats82
01-16-2010, 05:49 PM
I'm with Hjelmen0 on this one. The forfeit only applies to model that can not be knocked down but suffers a knocked down effect on the same turn, that is pretty specific in the rules too.

vintersbastard
01-17-2010, 05:55 AM
He thinks it doesn't mean what we think it means ... specifically, he thinks it means the model still forfeits its activation even though it has been stood up /shrug

A model never forfeits its activation if it's KD.

Musketeer
01-19-2010, 08:24 PM
My PGer would like an official "red or purple" name on the thread to weigh in before he allows me to use it on the local scene. Until then I fear he'll rule against me using the technique :(

Give your PGer a copy of the MKII rule book and a dictionary... Seriously, it is addressed. It is inane requests like his which clog up the ability to get REAL questions answered by PP when needed.

Caecus Scius
01-19-2010, 09:29 PM
Give your PGer a copy of the MKII rule book and a dictionary... Seriously, it is addressed. It is inane requests like his which clog up the ability to get REAL questions answered by PP when needed.


No... I agree with the guy's PG stance here (not just because I am one) but not necessarily his ruling. As a PG, we are required to rule on things during events to keep them going, and outside of events we spend time to work on rules questions to clear it up. If you are playing in an event run by a PG, then he has say over the way an ambiguous ruling should go until he gets official word otherwise.

This is not an inane request, its a highly complicated rules question that I think we have down but might be wrong about. Either way, don't insult him and tell him that its improper to get a ruling on something that obviously not everyone agrees with. BUT more importantly than whether the ruling is clear or not, if it's highly abusive or going to cause problems with the other players at the event, its easier for him to wait to get a purple name response than to make the game less fun. I can understand him telling you NO, you can't do this because its ambiguous and could make your opponents pull their hair out due to seeing it the other way. Can you imagine if someone did something you thought was illegal, and your PG ruled it legal, but there was no official response to it? You would be pissed.

The way I see it, if you are knocked down and get stood up by the feat, then you don't sacrifice anything and can extend threat range this way. However silly enough, if you are immune to KD, and get thrown, you still sacrifice something on your activation. So it works with models that are not immune to KD. If you like, I'll discuss this with your PG in private chat and maybe some of the rest of us PGers can help come to a temporary ruling until a purple name comes in here.


PLUS- I don't have my cards yet, but in the book there might be an errata or change to disallow this?

Kommissar Golovko
01-19-2010, 11:32 PM
Nothing in eIrusk's Feat wording or the rules disallow this. Yes, it has a funky interaction with models immune to Kd but that's fine by me. It's clear in black and white.

Knocked down models on eIrusk's feat turn, on the other hand, are immediately stood up. They have not lost their activation so upon activation, even if they were knocked down in the owning player's turn, they're standing. They do not need to sacrifice action or movement by any rule and so would activate normally.

It is a feat, a strong one but no more difficult than Kreoss' knocking down models.

Pydracor
01-20-2010, 12:05 AM
@ Golovko: Do you have the MKII Khador Faction deck in which eIrusk's feat is unchanged? Because if they really changed Kraye's feat as Gorbad posted up there but didn't do so on eIrusk's feat, as a Cygnar player I would have to cry "UNFAIR!" :D

Kommissar Golovko
01-20-2010, 12:12 AM
While I do not have the cards at the moment (still waiting for them from the local distributor), I did put a topic in the Khador forum which asked if there was any difference in the Mk II 2010 cards from the PDF and eIrusk never came up. While it may have been missed, I don't think there was any change.