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GlassJaw
08-02-2011, 03:36 PM
If a single-wound model casts a spell in a Thrullg's CMD range, it will take a single point of damage and be destroyed.

If that happens, does the spell effect still take place?

DemonCalibre
08-02-2011, 03:42 PM
As far as I know, the spell has to cast(which means it's resolved) for the model to have cast a spell to take damage from it.

sleet01
08-02-2011, 03:49 PM
What's the wording on Arcane Consumption? It should make the timing a bit more clear. But Witch Hunter says, "After an enemy model casts a spell within 10" of this model," which I've always seen played out as "immediately after the cast spell is resolved".

henderslice
08-02-2011, 05:01 PM
Arcane Consumption says "...after the spell is cast the enemy model suffers 1 damage point and this model heals 1 damage point." So the spell effect is resolved first, then the damage is applied.

eliassmith27
08-02-2011, 05:11 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but say a model casts an offensive spell at thrullg while in his command, killing thrullg with the attack. Arcane Consumption triggers, does one damage to the attacking model, healing thrullg 1 point, thrullg lives. Is this right? Kinda Tough like

Valander
08-02-2011, 05:16 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but say a model casts an offensive spell at thrullg while in his command, killing thrullg with the attack. Arcane Consumption triggers, does one damage to the attacking model, healing thrullg 1 point, thrullg lives. Is this right?

No, the effects are not simultaneous, so the Thrullg would have been through disabled-boxed-destroyed and already removed, thus unable to heal.

That said, however, I'm not positive what "after the spell has been cast" really means. If it means "after the spell is resolved," then it would work as I just described. If, however, it means something else, then it's murkier.

henderslice
08-02-2011, 05:16 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but say a model casts an offensive spell at thrullg while in his command, killing thrullg with the attack. Arcane Consumption triggers, does one damage to the attacking model, healing thrullg 1 point, thrullg lives. Is this right?

Doesn't work like that. The Thrullg damage is applied after the attack is resolved. Thrullg was destroyed and removed from play prior to resolution so there is nothing to trigger Arcane Consumption. Check the flow chart on page 237 of the rule book for clarification.

henderslice
08-02-2011, 05:19 PM
12a. Resolve effects that automatically damage, destroy, or remove models from play. - Page 237

This tells me that the spell effect has to be resolved before Arcane Consumption triggers.

Valander
08-02-2011, 05:22 PM
12a. Resolve effects that automatically damage, destroy, or remove models from play. - Page 237

This tells me that the spell effect has to be resolved before Arcane Consumption triggers.

Nice find. Agreed. Plus, it's a lot easier to resolve everything this way. ;)

henderslice
08-02-2011, 05:24 PM
Nice find. Agreed. Plus, it's a lot easier to resolve everything this way. ;)


Even a broken clock is right twice a day. :)

eliassmith27
08-02-2011, 05:25 PM
No, the effects are not simultaneous, so the Thrullg would have been through disabled-boxed-destroyed and already removed, thus unable to heal.

That said, however, I'm not positive what "after the spell has been cast" really means. If it means "after the spell is resolved," then it would work as I just described. If, however, it means something else, then it's murkier.


Arcane Consumption- When an enemy model casts a spell or uses an animus while in this model's command range, after the spell is cast the enemy model suffers 1 damage point and this model heals 1 damage point.

This make me think that it triggers as soon as the spell casting is declared but the damage and healing happen after the spell is resolved, even if the thrullg has been disabled.(or even RFP)

vintersbastard
08-03-2011, 12:34 AM
This ruling indicates that resolution of a spell is not the casting of the spell:

A model is considered to have cast a spell when it pays the focus/fury cost for the spell, so Arcane Consumption triggers before the slam.
How this exactly applies to models that don't pay focus/fury, I'm not sure.

Valander
08-03-2011, 08:31 AM
This ruling indicates that resolution of a spell is not the casting of the spell:

How this exactly applies to models that don't pay focus/fury, I'm not sure.

Interesting. What happens in the case where the casting model (even those that pay fury/focus) only has one health left and is then killed by the damage from Arcane Consumption? Do you still roll the attack and damage from the spell, or does it go >poof<? Which brings us back to the OP's original question. ;)

DemonCalibre
08-03-2011, 09:33 AM
It also causes a problem.

If I have a Magister with 1 hp, hit you with a force bolt.

If the spell goes off, but the model dies at the "Cast" step. Then we have a problem because we no longer know which way to push/pull the model because there is no longer a model to reference directly towards or away.

vintersbastard
08-03-2011, 10:45 AM
Interesting. What happens in the case where the casting model (even those that pay fury/focus) only has one health left and is then killed by the damage from Arcane Consumption? Do you still roll the attack and damage from the spell, or does it go >poof<? Which brings us back to the OP's original question. ;)

I really can't tell. Hex Hammer poses the same problem, by the way. Unlike Dhunia's Wrath (pHoarluk's feat), these two rules don't state that the resolution of the spell is prevented; but how is the spell resolved, especially if the casting model is able to boost or needed to determine some effect?

eliassmith27
08-03-2011, 10:52 AM
It should trigger at the beginning of casting but the damage would be taken after the push.

ie. You cast force bolt at thrullg, Arcane Consumption triggers, thrullg gets pushed/damaged by the spell, Magister takes 1 damage(even if thrullg suffered his last damage point), Thrullg heals 1.

My only question is if thrullg suffered his last damage point, does the healing happens before thrullg is removed from play?

sleet01
08-03-2011, 11:25 AM
If the order is:
1) Spell is cast
2) Arcane Consumption triggers
3) Spell is resolved, killing / RFP'ing Thrullg
4) Arcane Consumption damage / heal effects trigger

then no. You can't heal a destroyed model. You can't heal an RFP model. That was just wishful thinking & speculation on the part of one poster, I believe.

thag-rush
08-03-2011, 12:09 PM
My only question is if thrullg suffered his last damage point, does the healing happens before thrullg is removed from play?

Isn't thrullg immune to spells?

Bishop84
08-03-2011, 12:40 PM
Isn't thrullg immune to spells?

You had to go and ruin a wonderful theoretical debate by reading the rules, didn't you? ;)

Ok, so he can't be targetting by spells so let's say he's hit with Stone Spray from a Wayfarer with 1 hp left then...

jandrese
08-03-2011, 01:35 PM
What if the spellcaster uses TK to place themselves outside of the Thrullg's range?

Valander
08-03-2011, 01:44 PM
What if the spellcaster uses TK to place themselves outside of the Thrullg's range?

I think this one is pretty clear, in that if he started in the Thrullg's command range, he'd take damage. Now, however, we're unclear at this point as to whether that would happen before or after the movement from Telekinesis. That, however, probably should go in a different thread if it's still unclear as to when Arcane Consumption actually triggers once we get that answered in this thread (hopefully).

nverbe
08-03-2011, 02:25 PM
I guess I'm not sure what is in question right now.

but pg. 75 prime "when a model casts a spell, resolve the spell's effects immediately. "

since the effects are resolved immediately, that's before anything else is triggered, yeah?

Bishop84
08-03-2011, 03:50 PM
You definitely resolve the spell's effects before you resolve the triggered ability's effects, but the ability is question was still triggered when the spell was cast. sleet01's post seems to have the right order of it.

Chad
08-03-2011, 05:27 PM
Is 'after the spell is cast' after 'after the spell is resolved'? I'm not sure it's as clear as that.

If the spell was cast while within his effect radius, the trigger to do damage has occured. The condition is satisfied regardless of further positional changes. I'm fairly certain the damage will be taken.