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Revvy
08-12-2011, 09:08 AM
Multiple heads from Typhon states:


This model can make three initial attacks each combat action...


Does this allow three initial attacks to be made if Typhon makes a Power Attack with his combat action?

bnf
08-12-2011, 09:11 AM
No. You give up all your initial attacks when making a power attack.

Valander
08-12-2011, 09:11 AM
No. If you make a power attack, you sacrifice all of your initial attacks.

Edit: Re-read the section on Combat Actions (p. 48-49 Prime, not sure page number in Primal). It has a bulleted list showing what you can do in your combat action, and you only get to pick one from that list.

ForestZ
08-12-2011, 09:13 AM
Assuming Typhon is Hordes, but the rules in Primal should be the same in Prime (P 48-49). You either get your initial attacks OR a power attack, not both. It doesn't matter how many initial attacks you have, you still only get one power attack. (The minor exception is Charge, which is a power attack, but modifies your first initial attack and allows you to make the rest of your initial attacks afterwards.)

*damn, double ninja'd*

Valander
08-12-2011, 09:15 AM
Assuming Typhon is Hordes, but the rules in Primal should be the same in Prime (P 48-49). You either get your initial attacks OR a power attack, not both. It doesn't matter how many initial attacks you have, you still only get one power attack. (The minor exception is Charge, which is a power attack, but modifies your first initial attack and allows you to make the rest of your initial attacks afterwards.)

*damn, double ninja'd*

Actually, a Charge is not a Power Attack. It is a Charge. ;) Power Attacks are enumerated on Prime pp.51-56.

ForestZ
08-12-2011, 09:23 AM
Actually, a Charge is not a Power Attack. It is a Charge. ;) Power Attacks are enumerated on Prime pp.51-56.

So it isn't! My bad. I'm still relatively new to the rules and for some reason Charge got stuck in my head as a Power Attack. Oops!

Valander
08-12-2011, 09:25 AM
So it isn't! My bad. I'm still relatively new to the rules and for some reason Charge got stuck in my head as a Power Attack. Oops!

No worries. I just wanted to correct it so that you, or other new players, didn't get confused. ;)

Revvy
08-12-2011, 09:50 AM
The rules for Actions/Combat Actions on page 48 and 49 grant the option to make attack, rather than place any restrictions on them. Please quote where it says you lose your initial attacks when you make a power attack, I don't see it.

themocaw
08-12-2011, 10:00 AM
The rules for Actions/Combat Actions on page 48 and 49 grant the option to make attack, rather than place any restrictions on them. Please quote where it says you lose your initial attacks when you make a power attack, I don't see it.

You don't "lose" your initial attacks. You choose not to make them in favor of a power attack.

Think about it this way: you have a move and an action. With that action, you can choose to:

1. Take Initial attacks.

2. Use a Power Attack.

3. Use a Special Attack.

When Typhon chooses Initial Attacks, it gets three.

When it chooses Power Attack, it gets none.

thumpernickle
08-12-2011, 10:07 AM
Pages 48 and 49 of Primal tell you that when you make a combat action (one of two basic types of actions a model can make) you choose to do one of the following four:
1. Make one normal melee attack with each melee weapon (initial attacks).
2. Make one normal ranged attack with each ranged weapon (initial attacks).
3. Make one special attack (*attack) if available.
4. Make one power attack (counts as both a melee attack and special attack) if available.

If you select to perform option #4, you cannot also do option #1. Option #1 is the only option that grants you initial melee attacks.

Revvy
08-12-2011, 10:12 AM
You don't "lose" your initial attacks. You choose not to make them in favor of a power attack.

Think about it this way: you have a move and an action. With that action, you can choose to:

1. Take Initial attacks.

2. Use a Power Attack.

3. Use a Special Attack.

When Typhon chooses Initial Attacks, it gets three.

When it chooses Power Attack, it gets none.
Except it doesn't actually say that form what I read.

It say you get to pick one option with your Combat Action. All of the options grant attack, using the language "can".


A combat action lets a model make attacks. A normal attack is an attack with a weapon that is not a special attack. A model making a combat action chooses one of the following options:




A model can make one normal melee attack with each of its melee weapons. These attacks are called initial melee attacks. A model making more than one attack can divide them among any eligible targets




A model that did not use its normal movement to charge can make one power attack allowed by its special rules. A power attack is considered both a melee attack and a special attack.


Nowhere does it disqualify, all choices grant options. The option to make a normal attacks called initial attacks and the option to make one power attack. Nowhere that I can see does it say that you cannot make initial attacks if granted from somewhere else.

Valander
08-12-2011, 10:19 AM
Regardless, you only get one combat action. Typhon's three head rule does not grant you a second combat action, nor does it allow you to pick from multiple options during your combat action.

Alviaran
08-12-2011, 10:25 AM
You make a decision to use your Action for a Combat Action. If you do, that includes a list of choices. You choose ONE of them and execute it.

You are trying to dissect the rules WAY too much. If you make a special attack, you do not get to make initial attacks as well. Otherwise, you'd have Tartarus Threshering you and then taking an extra swing because he made both a special and an initial.

The CAN there is to say, that you do not have to make ALL of your initial attacks. Otherwise, if you had a Deathjack with three initials kill the enemy model on the first, he would have to start swinging on his friends nearby if he had extra initial attacks left. And if you did not use your movement to charge, you can perform those specific power attacks or make your initials. By not using your movement for certain things, you have restricted your choices. That is all that bit is saying.

Revvy
08-12-2011, 10:30 AM
Regardless, you only get one combat action. Typhon's three head rule does not grant you a second combat action, nor does it allow you to pick from multiple options during your combat action.
Please tell me why you need a combat action to make use of initial attacks? Again, all of the options that you must pick from during your combat action serve to give you additional options. None of them, by language, take away any options.

Reread the first option. It does not give you the option to make your initial attacks, but rather it gives you attacks that are called initial attacks. You can make these attacks as you would any other attack. You are not precluded from making other attacks gain from other sources during your combat action.

Multiple Heads grants the ability to make three initial attacks each combat action. Why, with a rules quote, can't you use them?

tuttleboy
08-12-2011, 10:35 AM
When you pick one thing to do with your combat action the bullet saying you can make a power attack says "A model that did not use its normal movement to charge can make one power attack allowed by its special rules. A power attack is considered both a melee attack and a special attack.

The bullet right before that says you only get one special attack.

Revvy
08-12-2011, 10:51 AM
You make a decision to use your Action for a Combat Action. If you do, that includes a list of choices. You choose ONE of them and execute it.

You are trying to dissect the rules WAY too much. If you make a special attack, you do not get to make initial attacks as well. Otherwise, you'd have Tartarus Threshering you and then taking an extra swing because he made both a special and an initial.

You misunderstand my argument. What I'm saying is that each of those options that you pick gives you the option to make certain attacks. The so-called "initial attack option", grants one attack for every melee/ranged weapon you have. The "special attack option" grants one special attack, and so on. These should function no differently from attacks granted by other means, such as spells and abilities.

You only have one chance to pick an option each turn, as you've stated. You pick at the beginning of your combat action if you want your initial attack, if you want to make a special attack, or whatever. When Tartarus picks to make banebabies, he doesn't get his initial attack because nothing granted him the ability to make an initial attack.

Typhoon is different. Multiple Heads says, explicitly, that the model gets three initial attacks each combat activation. It doesn't say you only get three initial attacks if you choose to make your initial attacks, like Rapid Fire on the Cyclone does, it just gives them to you each activation.

rydiafan
08-12-2011, 10:58 AM
When Tartarus picks to make banebabies, he doesn't get his initial attack because nothing granted him the ability to make an initial attack.

Huh? I think you need to reread the rules models have.


Typhoon is different. Multiple Heads says, explicitly, that the model gets three initial attacks each combat activation. It doesn't say you only get three initial attacks if you choose to make your initial attacks, like Rapid Fire on the Cyclone does, it just gives them to you each activation.

Having initial attacks is meaningless if you don't choose to use them. Choosing to use your initial attacks is not possible if you choose to make a power attack.

Revvy
08-12-2011, 10:59 AM
When you pick one thing to do with your combat action the bullet saying you can make a power attack says "A model that did not use its normal movement to charge can make one power attack allowed by its special rules. A power attack is considered both a melee attack and a special attack.

The bullet right before that says you only get one special attack.
Please, tell me where you got the "only" from? It's not in the rules you quoted. The language "can" is permissive. It allows you to do things. The option allows you to make one Power Attack. It does not allow to make two Power attacks, but it also doesn't prevent you from making two of them, should you be allowed a Power Attack from another source. It does not prevent you from making non-Power attacks.

thumpernickle
08-12-2011, 11:00 AM
Please tell me why you need a combat action to make use of initial attacks?
How else would you make initial attacks except with a combat action? A model's activation consists of two parts, a movement part and an action part. Once a model has resolved the movement part of its activation, the model can now either make a combat action or a special action. (Primal 42) If a model selects to make a special action, the model follows the rules of that special action (assuming the model can legally make a special action). If the model selects to make a combat action, it has four choices from which you select ONE option:
1. One melee attack with each melee weapon (these are initial attacks).
2. One ranged attack with each ranged weapon (these are initial attacks).
3. One special attack (*attack).
4. One power attack (counts as a melee attack and a special attack).
As I stated earlier, if you select #4, you cannot also select #1.




Multiple Heads grants the ability to make three initial attacks each combat action. Why, with a rules quote, can't you use them?
I do not have the Typhon card in front of me, but I believe that it only has one melee weapon listed on the front of the card. Under the core rules, this would only grant the Typhon one initial attack when the Typhon select Combat Action: Option #1. The special rule tells you that when you select Combat Action: Option #1, you actually get three initial attacks.

Revvy
08-12-2011, 11:04 AM
Huh? I think you need to reread the rules models have.



Having initial attacks is meaningless if you don't choose to use them. Choosing to use your initial attacks is not possible if you choose to make a power attack.
Please tell me why this is so, with rules.

tuttleboy
08-12-2011, 11:07 AM
The language is permissive in that you "can" do any of the bulleted items on PGs 48 & 49 of Prime. It doesn't mean you can do all of them it even says that in the last sentence right before the bullets start.

"A model making a combat action chooses one of the following options." If you really think you can do 3 power attacks I suggest you try it in a tournament environment and see how quickly you are told you may not.

rydiafan
08-12-2011, 11:07 AM
Please tell me why this is so, with rules.

No need for me to, as others already have quite well.


You don't "lose" your initial attacks. You choose not to make them in favor of a power attack.

Think about it this way: you have a move and an action. With that action, you can choose to:

1. Take Initial attacks.

2. Use a Power Attack.

3. Use a Special Attack.

When Typhon chooses Initial Attacks, it gets three.

When it chooses Power Attack, it gets none.


Pages 48 and 49 of Primal tell you that when you make a combat action (one of two basic types of actions a model can make) you choose to do one of the following four:
1. Make one normal melee attack with each melee weapon (initial attacks).
2. Make one normal ranged attack with each ranged weapon (initial attacks).
3. Make one special attack (*attack) if available.
4. Make one power attack (counts as both a melee attack and special attack) if available.

If you select to perform option #4, you cannot also do option #1. Option #1 is the only option that grants you initial melee attacks.

The term "initial attacks" is a key word; ignoring this fact does not change it. If Multiple Heads said something like "Typhon gets three normal melee attacks each turn" you would be correct. It doesn't, so you aren't.

Valander
08-12-2011, 11:07 AM
Please tell me why this is so, with rules.

Please tell us why it isn't, with rules.

Sorry, but your argument is just simply not sound. The use of the word "can" in all of the options available for combat action choices is there because it is not compulsory to make any attacks, nor is it compulsory to make all of your available/possible attacks.

The reason that the Three Heads rule exists is because of the fact that each head can do either Blight Breath or Bite as its attack, and unlike other models with multiple weapons of the same type, Typhon's card does not have a x3 icon indicating the number of types of weapons.

thumpernickle
08-12-2011, 11:09 AM
PG_Rydiafan: If you are contesting what I wrote, I am confused about your objection.

Valander
08-12-2011, 11:10 AM
PG_Rydiafan: If you are contesting what I wrote, I am confused about your objection.

I don't think he's contesting your post, just the OP's position, and using your post as evidence. ;)

rydiafan
08-12-2011, 11:11 AM
PG_Rydiafan: If you are contesting what I wrote, I am confused about your objection.

Quite the opposite. I was showing Revvy that you had already told him why this was so, with rules. Quoting your summary was easier than retyping it.

thumpernickle
08-12-2011, 11:15 AM
PG_rydiafan: Ah, I totally misread your statement.

Revvy
08-12-2011, 11:20 AM
Okay, let me try this from a different approach: Special rule trumps basic rule, so why doesn't "This model can make three initial attacks" trump the basic rule for combat actions?

rydiafan
08-12-2011, 11:21 AM
Okay, let me try this from a different approach: Special rule trumps basic rule, so why doesn't "This model can make three initial attacks" trump the basic rule for combat actions?

Because that special rule trumps the "make one attack with each weapon" basic rule of the "make initial attacks" option for your combat action, not the basic rule about how many combat actions a model gets.

Again, the quantity of initial attacks is irrelevant if you don't choose to use them.

NmoLvr
08-12-2011, 11:22 AM
The section entited 'Combat Actions' contains this line:


A model making a combat action chooses one of the following options:

The options are (paraphasing to save time):
1. Make initial melee attack(s)
2. Make initial ranged attack(s)
3. Make a special attack
4. Make a power attack

Choose one of the options. Just one. Power attacks and initial attacks are two separate options. If you choose one, you don't get the other.

Edit: the 2 posts just above this one appeared while I was typing. :)

Valander
08-12-2011, 11:30 AM
Let's look at the full text of Multiple Heads:


Multiple Heads - This model can make three initial attacks each combat action, using any combination of Blight Breath and Jaw attacks. This model loses one initial attack for each aspect it has lost. This model cannot be forced to make additional Blight Breath attacks.

Why is this important? Because:

1. Typhon does not have Virtuoso. So, by the basic rules, it cannot make both ranged and melee attacks in the same activation.
2. Both the Bite and Blight Breath are only listed once on the card, and do not have a "x2" or "x3" indication next to them. Basic rules here mean that it has one of each of those weapons.
3. Normally, you don't lose any initial attacks due to a crippled aspect, you just roll fewer dice.

The Multiple Heads rule modifies all of those. It does not grant you a mystical "additional initial attacks phase."

TL;DR: Read all of a rule when making arguments, not just the parts you want to try to find a loophole in.

Revvy
08-12-2011, 11:32 AM
Please tell us why it isn't, with rules.

Sorry, but your argument is just simply not sound. The use of the word "can" in all of the options available for combat action choices is there because it is not compulsory to make any attacks, nor is it compulsory to make all of your available/possible attacks.

Why is the "can" all of the Combat Action options different from the "can" in multiple heads? They use the same language. Why does one grant attacks but not the other?



The reason that the Three Heads rule exists is because of the fact that each head can do either Blight Breath or Bite as its attack, and unlike other models with multiple weapons of the same type, Typhon's card does not have a x3 icon indicating the number of types of weapons.
I understand the why. I care about the way that it's written.



The term "initial attacks" is a key word; ignoring this fact does not change it. If Multiple Heads said something like "Typhon gets three normal melee attacks each turn" you would be correct. It doesn't, so you aren't.
I was going to bring this up in my next post: The term initial attack is a key word that is defined but not actually given any meaning within the main body of rules. All it is within rules is a tag attached to a normal attack, used for interaction with model special rules. It isn't special or distinct from normal attacks internally.

rydiafan
08-12-2011, 11:48 AM
Again, the quantity of initial attacks is irrelevant if you don't choose to use them.

Please refute this with anything in the rule book, Revvy.

Revvy
08-12-2011, 11:48 AM
Because that special rule trumps the "make one attack with each weapon" basic rule of the "make initial attacks" option for your combat action, not the basic rule about how many combat actions a model gets.

Again, the quantity of initial attacks is irrelevant if you don't choose to use them.
Because it's not attached to the selection of the initial attack option, like Rapid Fire on the Cycle, I don't see how it can be limited to the initial attack option selection. It's scope is broad.


Let's look at the full text of Multiple Heads:



Why is this important? Because:

1. Typhon does not have Virtuoso. So, by the basic rules, it cannot make both ranged and melee attacks in the same activation.
2. Both the Bite and Blight Breath are only listed once on the card, and do not have a "x2" or "x3" indication next to them. Basic rules here mean that it has one of each of those weapons.
3. Normally, you don't lose any initial attacks due to a crippled aspect, you just roll fewer dice.

The Multiple Heads rule modifies all of those. It does not grant you a mystical "additional initial attacks phase."

TL;DR: Read all of a rule when making arguments, not just the parts you want to try to find a loophole in.
I'm not really sure where you're going with this. It's an expansive rule that overrides multiple basic rules.

rydiafan
08-12-2011, 11:52 AM
I don't see how it can be limited to the initial attack option selection.

Because it specifically says "initial attacks"? :confused:

Revvy
08-12-2011, 11:54 AM
Please refute this with anything in the rule book, Revvy.
This goes back to the "can make [attack]". And I suppose at this point we're done :)

iG4MER
08-12-2011, 11:54 AM
Guys.. I can see your really trying to help this lost soul find his way. He is choosing to ignore your evidence and proof of how the game works to argue and bring you down to his level. Please I beg you, let it end. You have really tried, and I commend you for it. If he is still refusing to see the light, you cant force him too, he will just have to live in his dark ignorance. Don't feed the trolls. I was gonna come in here and try to see if I could word it in such a way he would understand but I see many have already done that, and yet he still fails to come around... that means that he is here to just cause strife and confusion.. and for me that leaves only one option. Ignore.

Revvy
08-12-2011, 11:55 AM
Because it specifically says "initial attacks"? :confused:
But where does it say initial attacks are different or special in any way? Where is meaning assigned to the term "initial attack"?

rydiafan
08-12-2011, 11:56 AM
But where does it say initial attacks are different or special in any way? Where is meaning assigned to the term "initial attack"?

In this section of the rules:


You don't "lose" your initial attacks. You choose not to make them in favor of a power attack.

Think about it this way: you have a move and an action. With that action, you can choose to:

1. Take Initial attacks.

2. Use a Power Attack.

3. Use a Special Attack.

When Typhon chooses Initial Attacks, it gets three.

When it chooses Power Attack, it gets none.


Pages 48 and 49 of Primal tell you that when you make a combat action (one of two basic types of actions a model can make) you choose to do one of the following four:
1. Make one normal melee attack with each melee weapon (initial attacks).
2. Make one normal ranged attack with each ranged weapon (initial attacks).
3. Make one special attack (*attack) if available.
4. Make one power attack (counts as both a melee attack and special attack) if available.

If you select to perform option #4, you cannot also do option #1. Option #1 is the only option that grants you initial melee attacks.


The section entited 'Combat Actions' contains this line:



The options are (paraphasing to save time):
1. Make initial melee attack(s)
2. Make initial ranged attack(s)
3. Make a special attack
4. Make a power attack

Choose one of the options. Just one. Power attacks and initial attacks are two separate options. If you choose one, you don't get the other.

LunarSol
08-12-2011, 12:00 PM
I'm confused at the confusion here. Initial Attacks are a subset of Combat Actions, not the other way around. Multiple Heads grants 3 Initial Attacks, not 3 Combat Actions.

iG4MER
08-12-2011, 12:04 PM
Okay, PG_rydiafan, Contributors,

Let me see if I have an understanding of these rules.

I have a list of options I CAN do and because I have a special rule that says I CAN do one of these mean, if I choose one of the options I default/ignore the others because I made my choice from the list given and therefor can make no further attack options this turn. Is that right?

LunarSol, so what I understand you saying is that you can either or. You can have your 3 attacks, or the Power attack, not both. Gotcha. ;)

NOTE: Just so you know, I have not played this game before, well MKII that is. So I am totally ignorant to actual game play. I have to rely on the rule book and discussions like this one, and the kindness of friends who are far more experienced.

( IS THERE A WAY TO PLUS ONE THE POST BELOW ME? )

Thunder_God
08-12-2011, 12:04 PM
There is no confusion, just someone who's choosing to not agree.

It's not an issue of understanding, but of agreement.

NmoLvr
08-12-2011, 12:28 PM
But where does it say initial attacks are different or special in any way? Where is meaning assigned to the term "initial attack"?

Here:


A model can make one normal melee attack with each of its melee weapons. These attacks are called initial melee attacks. A model making more than one attack can divide them among any eligible targets.

and here:


A model can make one normal ranged attack with each of its ranged weapons. These attacks are called initial ranged attacks. A model making more than one attack can divide them among any eligible targets. Each ranged weapon makes only one initial attack regardless of its ROF.

These are the definitions of initial attacks. They are the full text of choices 1 and 2 in my previous post.

Mod_GoLu
08-12-2011, 12:57 PM
Locking the thread so it doesn't grow (any more) out of control by the time an Infernal gets here.

Macallan
08-12-2011, 01:42 PM
Post #2 has the right answer. Initial attack is a game term. If you are making an initial attack, then you are doing it per the combat rules. You are not making a power attack.
You usually make one initial attack per weapon. Here it is not the same and the multiple heads rule tells you how it differs.