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Damoel
08-17-2011, 12:14 PM
If a WoldWarden with Lightning Strike on it from the Warpwolf Stalker uses its own Animus Wild Growth, does Lightning Strike expire?

There is a discussion in the Circle forums about this. There is some concern that the range of "Self" in the Wild Growth animus means that it is effecting the Woldwarden, and thus will cause the Warpwolf Stalker's animus to fade, as it is an older animus. The opposition contends is that a range of "Self" does not necessarily indicate that the new animus is effecting the WoldWarden, simply that there is no choice on where to place it. Frankly they both seem reasonably likely, so I figured a more in depth discussion was warranted.

I figured I would bring this to the rules forum for discussion and see if it could be resolved. I apologize if there is an existant thread on this subject and would appreciate a link to it. Thank you all for any assistance you can render.

Valander
08-17-2011, 12:18 PM
Animi/spells with range "Self" are, in fact, "on" the model casting/using them.

Damoel
08-17-2011, 12:22 PM
Ah, well, I suppose it seemed strange to me that centering an AOE on the model would cause another animus to fade, but that does appear to be the way it works. Thank you.

eliassmith27
08-17-2011, 12:51 PM
Animi/spells with range "Self" are, in fact, "on" the model casting/using them.

On that note would the forest then fallow the model "it is on", and if cast by a warlock before moving, would it disappear if the warlock cast it again after advancing?

Crate123
08-17-2011, 01:12 PM
On that note would the forest then fallow the model "it is on", and if cast by a warlock before moving, would it disappear if the warlock cast it again after advancing?

No, check the text on Despoiler animus on Belphagor "Center a 5" AOE cloud effect on this model. The AOE remains centered on the model...."
Its different from the text on the worldwarden animus which says " Center a 4" AOE on this model. The AOE is a forest that remains in play for one round"

Bishop84
08-17-2011, 02:31 PM
The fact that the forest doesn't move with the model doesn't change the fact that it still originated from a range: self animus.

Damoel
08-17-2011, 02:33 PM
The fact that the forest doesn't move with the model doesn't change the fact that it still originated from a range: self animus.

True, it may just be a little counter intuitive to some folks. It is an odd interaction.

kaneblaise
08-17-2011, 09:37 PM
So does the forest continue to "affect the model" in that if another animus is placed on the model that cast the Woldwarden's animus the forest disappears? Can a caster cast the Woldwarden's animus, advance, and then cast it again, forming a second forest that also stays on the board?

Taslon
08-17-2011, 11:20 PM
ISnt this along the same line as primal? Even though you cast another animus, the current ones lingering effects stay in place? Or does this mean primal's rage effect go away if the model was affected by another animus.


Also does this mean that lets say You had a forest down, behind you, out of purification range, but your cast was in purification range, the forest would disapear, or if you were shot with E Eiryss the forst disappears. This has so many negative connotations if resolved like that.

Snowmelter
08-18-2011, 02:37 AM
Next question would be: If the caster of the animus dies, does the forrest go away? Druid´s Vortices have a similar wording and do not expire on the death of the druid.

Tsenzei
08-18-2011, 02:58 AM
The forest (I think) is not tied to the caster, and remains for the duration. Primal has a good example with the Frenzy component (but is otherwise not applicable to the question at hand) where even if Primal is over-written or otherwise removed, the target still Frenzies at the next turn as per it's wording.

Vex
08-18-2011, 07:10 AM
Primal - MKII - Page 82: "As long as a model or unit is under the effects of no more than one friendly and one enemy upkeep spell, it can be effected by any number of non-upkeep spells and up to one friendly animus effect at the same time."

So, IMO, the question comes down to whether a summoned forest counts as a friendly animus effect. If it does, then when another friendly beast casts a different animus on the Woldwarden the forest should either fade away, or the Woldwarden should stop being affected by the forest (no concealment, etc.) - otherwise, the Woldwarden would be in violation of the rule quoted above. Since that is obviously not the case, it is safe to assume that a summoned forest is not a "fiendly animus effect".

eliassmith27
08-18-2011, 08:25 AM
Primal - MKII - Page 82: "As long as a model or unit is under the effects of no more than one friendly and one enemy upkeep spell, it can be effected by any number of non-upkeep spells and up to one friendly animus effect at the same time."

So, IMO, the question comes down to whether a summoned forest counts as a friendly animus effect. If it does, then when another friendly beast casts a different animus on the Woldwarden the forest should either fade away, or the Woldwarden should stop being affected by the forest (no concealment, etc.) - otherwise, the Woldwarden would be in violation of the rule quoted above. Since that is obviously not the case, it is safe to assume that a summoned forest is not a "fiendly animus effect".

The effect of the animus is to create a forest. This in no why effects the model. Concealment is an effect of being in a forest and is not ignored by things that ignore spells and animi. I bring this up because calling concealment an effect of the animus is the wrong way to look at it. All the animus does is drop ma forest on the ground where the model is standing.

quindraco
08-18-2011, 09:17 AM
As the animus is RNG SELF, it's an animus that targets the model casting it. This means it displaces older animi. I would have to read the actual animus to tell you more, but if it just says "put down a forest which lasts for 1 round", then the effect is instantaneous, not ongoing, and hence should not be displaced by newer animi.

blue loki
08-18-2011, 10:38 AM
ISnt this along the same line as primal? Even though you cast another animus, the current ones lingering effects stay in place? Or does this mean primal's rage effect go away if the model was affected by another animus.

If you cast another animus on a model already benefiting from Primal, you lose the MAT and STR benefit as it expires, but the auto-Frenzy still occurs next turn (Primal ALWAYS expires before the model frenzies, even if not dispelled or replaced).

Tsenzei
08-18-2011, 11:20 AM
I think for me, the main thing is that the Warden Animus does not effect the model, nor is it an aura applied to the model. Comparatively speaking, Megalith's Undergrowth applies an aura attached to the caster. Belphagore's Cloud is also an aura attached to the caster. So those two would function differently, and be limited in the use of Animus.

Nargacuga
08-18-2011, 01:46 PM
This definitely needs an official answer.

The distinction between whether or not an AOE remains in play cannot be reduced to the whether or not the template remains centered on the model.

What we need a ruling on is whether the objects (AOE templates, forests, clouds, etc) and lasting effects (frenzy, bushwack, sprint, countercharge, etc) generated by an Animus dissapear when it is dispelled or overwritten.

I'll assume PP's intention is that everything that is directly generated by an animus expires when the animus is dispelled or overwritten. If that is indeed the way this goes, we'll get an errata for Primal that exempts the frenzy portion from that rule.

Vicomte Athos
08-18-2011, 04:38 PM
I'll assume PP's intention is that everything that is directly generated by an animus expires when the animus is dispelled or overwritten. If that is indeed the way this goes, we'll get an errata for Primal that exempts the frenzy portion from that rule.

Primal won't need an errata. The Gorax has a tactical tip that explains that even when over written the model will still frenzy.

Tsenzei
08-18-2011, 06:10 PM
And, given Primal I think that rules out that PP's intention is that everything vanishes. For another example, if Blood Thorn goes away any models that were previously hit by the affected weapons will still have Corrosion on them as a continuous effect.

Ultimately, I think it comes down to instant vs. persistent. My point with Belphagore and Megalith was what they are persistent auras rather than an instant effect.

Of course, the Infernals MIGHT provide a ruling that indicates that the Warden Animus is not instant, but I personally think it's unlikely.

nverbe
08-18-2011, 10:38 PM
When a model already under the effects of an animus is hit with a new animus the older one expires. a RNG self animus can only be cast on the caster. i believe that implies he's hitting himself with the animus. So lightning strike should expire.

I think because of the same wording though, that any animus cast on the warden after the forest was placed wouldn't cause the forest to expire. The animus caused something to happen, he isn't under the effects of it.

red wine glass #2 logic though.

Taslon
08-18-2011, 11:37 PM
When a model already under the effects of an animus is hit with a new animus the older one expires. a RNG self animus can only be cast on the caster. i believe that implies he's hitting himself with the animus. So lightning strike should expire.

I think because of the same wording though, that any animus cast on the warden after the forest was placed wouldn't cause the forest to expire. The animus caused something to happen, he isn't under the effects of it.

red wine glass #2 logic though.

read Primal, now read lightning strike. If I kill something with lightning strike up, then I met its trigger, and get the advance. If I use primal, ive met its trigger I auto frenzy. Each Animus has a Effect, like +2 move or th elike, or a trigger effect that happenbs after you meet the requirement. So how I interpret it, is that If I have lightning strike on, and I kill a target, I get that move, even if I cast another animus, As I already have the trigger done. If I cast primal on someone, and not even activate them, or hit them with another animus, I have done the trigger and the effect takes place even I override it. In this I think there are passive and active animi. I hope this makes sense. But a woldwarden can pop its animus, it will indeed clear any current, and then it will have none, as the animus doesnt stay on the warden, it creates a forest that lasts one round. So in this, the animus (First: Clear any active animi, second, add the animi and its effects, third; Rapid growth resolves off the target and the warden stands with nothing on it, as the animus created the forest and thats the end of its activity. I hope my thoughts make sense.

FrostBlade
08-19-2011, 02:34 AM
So how I interpret it, is that If I have lightning strike on, and I kill a target, I get that move, even if I cast another animus, As I already have the trigger done.
I don't think you can do this, isn't Sprint 'end of activation'? If you add the other animus before the 'animii-ed' model activates or makes it's Sprint move, you will lose Sprint as it is an ability granted by the animus. You will lose Sprint and gain whatever benefits the new animus gives you (fingers crossed for tenacity :p).

LEJ
08-19-2011, 04:16 AM
Do we have a rules quote for "Range: Self Animi are cast on the casting model"? Because if not that doesn't necessarily follow.
It's range: Self because the template is placed under the casting model, no effect is ever on the model itself. Think of this, a warden casts a forest, walks forward and then the warden (But not the forest) is caught in a purification spell effect. The forest does not go because the effect is simply the forest, no effect is cast on the warden.

vintersbastard
08-19-2011, 03:22 PM
Do we have a rules quote for "Range: Self Animi are cast on the casting model"? Because if not that doesn't necessarily follow.
The quote's not for animi, but spells work the same way as far as I know:

A RNG of "SELF" indicates the spell can be cast only on the model casting it.
But this doesn't necessarily mean that the effect keeps staying on the target model, just that it was the target when the spell (animus) was cast. (Thereby expiring previous animi.)

LEJ
08-20-2011, 12:15 PM
I'll buy that.

dragonforcehair
08-20-2011, 01:09 PM
so to be clear:

if a warden with an animus on it then uses its own animus, the older one expires.

if you use the warden first to use its animus, then later put another animus on it (eg flesh of clay) the forest from its own animus would disappear.

eliassmith27
08-20-2011, 02:02 PM
so to be clear:

if a warden with an animus on it then uses its own animus, the older one expires.

if you use the warden first to use its animus, then later put another animus on it (eg flesh of clay) the forest from its own animus would disappear.

Flesh of Clay is a self target animus, so you can't put it on a warden. If you did put an animus on the warden after it used it's own,(after it's activation) the forest would not disappear? It may be cast on the warden, but it stays on the table for one round.(much like the auto-frenzy from Primal

RevGeoff
08-22-2011, 06:16 PM
I find myself waffling on this debate. It seems to make intuitive sense that the forest would stay around if the warden (I'll call him Bucky) casts Wild Growth and then has someone else cast an animus on him. On the other hand, what makes Wild Growth different from the Wold Guardian's Flesh of Clay or Megalith's Undergrowth.
As far as I can tell, the rules do not differentiate between an animus that causes an "instant" or "persistent" effect. So, if we agree that the range of "Self" means that it is cast on Bucky, then strictly by the rules any other animus cast on Bucky means that the forest would disappear.

pg 79 "A RNG of "SELF" indicates that a spell can be cast only on the model casting it or an animus can only be cast on the model using it."

I'll try to rearrange my thoughts to come up with the counter argument. Maybe I need that second glass of wine.

Just adding:
pg 82 (of Primal of course) "Although it is not possible to have more than one friendly upkeep spell and one enemy upkeep spell on a model or unit at a time, it is possible for a model or unit to be affected by more than one spell or animus at a time...it can be affected by any number of non-upkeep spells and up to one friendly animus effect at the same time."

Alph
08-23-2011, 12:47 AM
okay there's a few scenarios here.

Kromac + 2 wolds (warden and watcher) - Caster uses Wild Growth, places forest, later in activation before or after moving then casts watcher's no knock down animus, forest vanishes.

Warden pops his own animus, next turn gets hit by "animi and upkeep spells currently on model expire" forest vanishes.

This all comes down to the fact that it's a range self animus so sadly is treated in the same way as any other animus cast on something, and that forest is a direct result of the animus.

It's a little different to lylyth giving herself the ravgores animus, shootiing, setting somthing on fire then casting the shredders animus on herself, she looses the ability to make her second shot set things on fire but the first burning target doesn't get rid of the continuous effect as this is an indirect effect of the animus.

Just like loosing the maulers anumis after killing something doesn't bring things back to life because the model no longer has +3 str.

I understand that it feels like the range self is just a guideline for placing the forest but sadly that range self means it's an animus on the model that follows all the usual rules for an animus on a model - A new animus will make the old one expire, the forest is a direct result of the animus and gets vanished also.

vintersbastard
08-23-2011, 01:37 AM
I find myself waffling on this debate. It seems to make intuitive sense that the forest would stay around if the warden (I'll call him Bucky) casts Wild Growth and then has someone else cast an animus on him. On the other hand, what makes Wild Growth different from the Wold Guardian's Flesh of Clay or Megalith's Undergrowth.
As far as I can tell, the rules do not differentiate between an animus that causes an "instant" or "persistent" effect. So, if we agree that the range of "Self" means that it is cast on Bucky, then strictly by the rules any other animus cast on Bucky means that the forest would disappear.

The rules distinguish between animi "on" a model and animi not "on" a model. While Wild Growth is cast "on" the Woldwarden, it doesn't stay there, instead creating a forest on the table.
Flesh of Clay and Undergrowth, contrarily, are both effects that remain on the target model.

Alph
08-23-2011, 02:08 AM
The rules distinguish between animi "on" a model and animi not "on" a model. While Wild Growth is cast "on" the Woldwarden, it doesn't stay there, instead creating a forest on the table.

I know that's how it feels, however there's no rules for this, it's a range self animus that's cast on the woldwarden, so it's ON the woldwarden.

An effect of this animus is that it creates a forest that stays in play for one round.

When that animus on that wold expires the forest (a direct effect of the animus) must also go.

blue loki
08-23-2011, 04:35 AM
No. The resolution of Wild Growth is instantaneous. After you place the forest, the animus is no longer on the Woldwarden/Warlock.

Alph
08-23-2011, 04:54 AM
I hope it gets ruled in your favor, and I hope getting shot by eiryss can't get rid of the wood etc as it'd help my kromac list.

Ruan
08-23-2011, 10:28 AM
I have an buff animus on my warbeast. When that warbeast uses a 'pulse' style animus such as Wild Growth or Baying of Chaos, in which the effect immediately happens, then is done, can I keep the buff animus on my warbeast?

No. For instance, you have a Woldwarden with Lightning Strike from the Warpwolf Stalker on it. Normally, Lightning Strike would allow Sprint, assuming the Woldwarden killed a model in melee. You want to try to set up an assassination run with Baldur, so you charge a model and kill it, and then use Wild Growth, causing a 4" forest template to appear.

Here is where it goes wrong. The moment you force to use Wild Growth, Lightning Strike drops off. It is no longer there. Therefore, the Woldwarden cannot sprint away, clearing the way so Baldur can Forest Walk.

Infernal ruling here (https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?28600-Seraph-Slipstream-and-quot-Lurker-Animus-quot-.).

That said, I wouldn't mind having some clarification to make certain that Wild Growth/Lightning Strike interaction DOES, in fact, work that way, as the ruling in question may not have been fully taking a corner case like that into account.

RevGeoff
08-23-2011, 11:53 AM
I cannot find anywhere in the rules where it differentiates an "instant" or "persistent" animus (although I am trying to take care of my five year old son and six month old Syber-Collie). Personally, it feels like you should be able to cast Wild Growth and then have another animus cast on the Woldwarden (and keeping the forest in play), but strictly according to the rules this doesn't seem to work.

ThatRickGuy
08-23-2011, 12:30 PM
"it can be affected by any number of non-upkeep spells and up to one friendly animus effect at the same time"

Nothing about not being able to have animuses cast at it, just that it can only be under the EFFECT of one animus at a time.

So the question appears to be, does the Wold Warden's animus Wild Growth count as a "friendly animus effect" ON the Wold Warden?

My assumption would be no. The forest does not follow the Wold if it moves, we don't put a token on the Wold indicating that it is effected by Wild Growth, the Wild Growth does not directly effect the Wold in any way. So IMO, even if it TARGETS the Wold, it isn't a "animus effect" ON the Wold. And thus, the Lightning Strike animus effect ON the Wold would remain, and the forest would appear.

-Rick

Bladestorm
08-23-2011, 03:40 PM
As I see it:

Wild Growth targets the Woldwarden or Warlock when cast and whilst Wild Growth itself has no duration, it still goes into effect on it briefly whilst it is resolving, which is enough to expire a previous animus.

The template that is left behind does have a duration and so sticks around for a round, quite separate to the now already expired animus.

ThatRickGuy
08-23-2011, 04:10 PM
If that were the case, why would the rule specify:

"it is possible for a model or unit to be affected by more than one spell or animus at a time"

You can't have more than one persisting animus on a model at any time, but you can cast multiple non-persisting aniumses on the same model.

What other situations could transpire to require that rule to be worded as such?

-Rick

RevGeoff
08-23-2011, 06:59 PM
While I tend to agree with you Rick, my only real issue with any of the arguments for the wood staying is that those who try to make their point seem to be adding new rules. Please let me explain; there are no "persisting" or "non-persisting" animuses in the rules. There are only friendly and non-friendly animuses.

Your quote in post #36 is correct:
pg 82
Under "Multiple Spell Effects
...it can be affected by any number of non-upkeep spells and up to one friendly animus effect at the same time.
pg 79
Under RNG,Range (sorry...my quotation marks are now not working)
...A RNG of SELF indicates that a spell can be cast only on the model casting it or an animus can only be cast on the model using it.

The fact that the animus targets the Woldwarden but does not follow him/her/it does not change the fact that it is a friendly animus that targeted the Woldwarden. Again, there is no difference from persisting, instant, hanging around or even lazy animuses.

A model can be affected by more than one animus at a time, just one can be friendly.

Perhaps we would not be discussing this if Wild Growth said:
Centre a 4 inch AOE on this model. The AOE is a whiling ball of pink gooeyness that follow the same rules as forests.

ThatRickGuy
08-23-2011, 08:35 PM
I don't feel I am creating a new rule at all ;)

As per the first half of the rule you quote from p82: "it is possible for a model or unit to be affected by more than one spell or animus at a time".

Read that again, you can be Affected by more than one, you can not have more than one Effect at any point.

Those two words are different with a reason. Casting the animous on a target is an "affect". It is a verb, an action. Having the model's stats changed, or gaining some other advantage/disadvantage is an Effect. It is a noun, a thing.

So you can cast all you want, but only one buff/debuff. Hence, Affecting the Wold by casting Wild Growth while it has the Effect of Lightning Strike on it results in the Effect of Lightning Stike remaining on the Wold, and the Wild Growth sitting on the table.

-Rick

blue loki
08-24-2011, 04:29 AM
As per the first half of the rule you quote from p82: "it is possible for a model or unit to be affected by more than one spell or animus at a time".


This rule exists because it is possible to have any number of enemy animi on a model at any given time. The single animus limitation applies only to friendly animi.

smw356
08-24-2011, 04:57 AM
I think the less obvious but more pertinent question is does a warlock that has cast the wardens animus and then casts lightning strike, does the forest remain in play?

Or does a warden getting shot by eyriss or hit by a thrullg or hexblast cause the forest to disappear when its animus is "removed"

ThatRickGuy
08-24-2011, 06:39 AM
On the eEiryss question, I would expect the answer to be no.

eEiryss' Arcane Interference ability removes spell/animus Effects from a model, it has no affect on the forest as it isn't an Effect on a model.

Again, this comes down to the specific and purposeful use of the words "Effect" and "Affect" in the rules. If you are unfamiliar with the difference between those words, please hit up google, there are tons of sites dedicated to such nuances of the English language.

-Rick

RevGeoff
08-24-2011, 03:15 PM
I am not one to try and look for the inner meaning of the use of words in these games. I think that the two of us could possibly continue this argument for the next month without any conclusion (for example, the effect of the spell is +2 def but still the model has been affected...the effect of the animus is a forest but the model must be affected by the spell according to the rules for the effect to be generated...isn't English a wonderful thing?).

I think a general ruling could be made to clarify this. I didn't see this as a big rules question until the eEiryss question...mind you I have only used her once (but have killed her many many times).
To quote my wife (a High School English teacher with a couple more degrees than I) "this is a gaming book so God only knows what they mean"
Hey, my " are working!

ThatRickGuy
08-24-2011, 08:55 PM
It's not a matter of "inner meaning" of these words. Effect and Affect are basic english with very specific and different meanings.


effect of the spell is +2 def but still the model has been affected

Exactly, the model has been affected by having a spell cast on it. The resulting effect is +2 def.


the effect of the animus is a forest but the model must be affected by the spell according to the rules for the effect to be generated

Exactly! The model is affected by the casting of the spell, and the forest is the resulting effect, but it is not and effect on the model, it is an effect on the game surface.

Casting a spell/animus = affect
Result of the spell/animus = effect

Models are capped in the number of Effects, not Affects.

As far as rules clarity goes, this stuff is leaps and bounds better than some other games. ;) But I agree that this could be debated forever until an infernal gives us some solid direction.

Birk
08-24-2011, 09:33 PM
The wording for Wild Growth says that "The AOE is a forest that remains in play for one round". That is different from many animi that has the wording "(name of animus) lasts for one round".

If think that means that Wild Growth does not remain in play even if the forest does.

mangsky
08-24-2011, 09:53 PM
I think the word "remains" is the key difference here

DemonCalibre
08-24-2011, 10:09 PM
This is my take.

Wild Growth the Animus, and the Forest it Generates are not the same thing, and that Wild Growth has no duration.

Why? because if Wild Growth was on the Warden for more then an instant it would never expire, because nothing in the rule talks about Wild Growth Expiring. The Forest expires, on the other hand, but why wouldn't the rule say "Place a AOE on this model, this AOE is a forest, Wild Growth last for one round" if the forest wasn't a separate entity, then the Animus.

Edit: this would mean Wild Growth would eat lightning strike, but this means lightning strike wouldn't eat wild growth.

Just my 2 cents.

ExRaze
08-25-2011, 02:45 PM
Well, why would you activate warden and cast wild growth, end your activation, activate stalker/caster & cast Lightning strike on the warden? Hes not going to benefit from it at all since his activation has already ended.

solkan
08-25-2011, 03:21 PM
I agree with DemonCalibre. Wild Growth, the animus itself, is an "instantaneous" (for lack of a game term) animus which creates something that outlives itself--the forest AOE that lasts one round. But even though it's "instantaneous", it still affects the model that casts it (and the model casting it has to target itself because of page 79 and the definition of RNG: SELF).

So if you managed to get a warlock who could keep up a steady cycle of "Cast Wild Growth, advance, and repeat" you could leave behind a veritable jungle of forest AOE's that would all exist until the next round.

ThatRickGuy
08-25-2011, 04:14 PM
even though it's "instantaneous", it still affects the model that casts it (and the model casting it has to target itself because of page 79 and the definition of RNG: SELF).

Exactly! Casting Wild Growth would affect the model, but it wouldn't be an effect on the model. Therefore, the Lightning Strike effect on the model would not be dropped.

-Rick