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11on1d6
08-26-2011, 07:41 PM
If you have a unit that that is partially engaged because you have set up in "layers" or just couldnt get them all in what do you do if you want to charge with the unengaged models? I ask because doesnt that mean the whole unit has to charge, how can that be done when the models engaged will struggle to move 3" due to already being in b2b or at least 2".


On a related note, can a model with reach charge a heavy jack its already engaged with by charging sideways, so that its moving 3", and thenupon finishing its charge turn to face the intended target?


I tried to read through the chapter on charging/running in the book but it didnt really make it any more clear to me. Thanks for any help.

Josh-o-Lantern
08-26-2011, 07:58 PM
If I recall correctly you can make a 0" charge, it's the charge bonus (the boosted melee damage roll) that requires the 3".

On the 2nd question, I think you have to move directly toward the model and I think sideways doesn't cut it but I'm not 100% on that.

DarkTemplars
08-26-2011, 08:03 PM
For charging, you have to move towards the target, not directly towards. For the angle charging trying to get 3", as long as you finish the move closer to your target, you hae fulfilled the "towards" requirement.

If a unit receives the charge order, and some models are already engaging or engaged, those models can still receive the order and finish thier move by turning to directly face thier target. If they don't move the 3", they just lose out on the charge bonus die.

ThatRickGuy
08-26-2011, 08:16 PM
You don't have to charge toward your target, you just have to charge such that given an infinate movement in a straight line at the desired direction you would become engaged with the target. so you could for example, if engaging with a reach model, declare a charge against said model, turn 90+ degrees, and charge 3", then turn to face. In that movement, the target model can not leave your melee range, but with reach, and some precise placement (easier if you have 360 vision), you can charge 'away' from a model.

-Rick

juckto
08-27-2011, 12:54 AM
A trooper that receives a charge order must run or charge. To charge, they must move in a straight line that will bring them into melee range of their enemy. If they're already in melee range, they may decide to move 0". They won't get the charge bonus, as they have moved less than 3" (but nor will they fail the charge move, and be forced to end their activation).

A unit can charge a model it is already engaging, and gain the charge bonus, if it can move in such a way that it moves 3" and you keep the enemy model in its melee range the whole time.

+Edited to remove error.

Ramses0559
08-27-2011, 01:03 AM
You don't have to charge toward your target, you just have to charge such that given an infinate movement in a straight line at the desired direction you would become engaged with the target. so you could for example, if engaging with a reach model, declare a charge against said model, turn 90+ degrees, and charge 3", then turn to face. In that movement, the target model can not leave your melee range, but with reach, and some precise placement (easier if you have 360 vision), you can charge 'away' from a model.

-Rick

This is incorrect. When charging there are a few things that must happen.
You must charge in a direction that would end you in melee.
You can never move away from the charge target.
The target must remain in melee.

bitmatic
08-27-2011, 02:00 AM
You must charge in a direction that would end you in melee.
You can never move away from the charge target.
The target must remain in melee.

This is incorrect.

There is no requirement that you move towards the charge target.
There is also no requirement that you remain in melee. But if you move out of melee, the charge fails.

vintersbastard
08-27-2011, 02:04 AM
And I think, but I'm not sure, you have to move so that the distance between them is decreasing (i.e. you are moving "towards").
There's no such stipulation in the charge rules.


You must charge in a direction that would end you in melee [ignoring available movement and impediments on the way].
You can never move away from the charge target.
The target must remain in melee [range].
Number one and three are correct, but stipulation number two doesn't exist in the rules.


Anybody else who wants to comment on this might perhaps want to take another (close) look at the charge rules on p. 46f of Prime.:)


Edit:

There is also no requirement that you remain in melee. But if you move out of melee, the charge fails.
And at the Errata (http://privateerpress.com/warmachine-and-hordes-errata-update), apparently.:)

Northern Ronin
08-27-2011, 02:13 AM
This is incorrect.

There is no requirement that you move towards the charge target.
There is also no requirement that you remain in melee. But if you move out of melee, the charge fails.

There is in fact, a requirement to choose a charge path which would end with the charger being engaged with their intended target given limitless movement, ergo, you must move towards your intended target (not necessarily directly towards, but your vector must be near enough you'd engage if you could get there). Both of these limitations are very clearly printed on Page 47 of Prime, about half way into the first paragraph.

You also must in fact remain engaged with your charge target once engagement is made. A model with reach cannot swing behind a non-reaching model because of this, they'll pass about the half point, then be forced to stop to avoid UN-engaging their target.

To reply directly to the OP;
While the entire unit must charge (or run), those already at engagement may 'charge' a model they are engaged with. Even if they cannot make 3 inches of movement, they are still 'charging', but do not get the boosted Damage roll (nor do other factors requiring a charge, such as Powerful Charge or Set Defense kick in). They are still limited by all of the normal charge limitations (Such as ending movement directly facing their target, making the attack, and being legally allowed to charge (no forfeiting, no speed penalty, etc).

If a model (say one with reach), can squeak out 3 inches of movement during the charge, it is a charge attack, it is possible to have reaching models meet this need when at the limits of reach by charging at funny angles. Keep in mind, while moving you face the direction you move, and at no time can your target leave your Engagement, and it must be a straight line. In game play, it's possible, but not always assured that it can be done.

bitmatic
08-27-2011, 02:28 AM
@Jaster & vinterbastard: I stand corrected :)
So, you must stay within the melee range. Makes good sense actually.



There is in fact, a requirement to choose a charge path which would end with the charger being engaged with their intended target given limitless movement, ergo, you must move towards your intended target (not necessarily directly towards, but your vector must be near enough you'd engage if you could get there). Both of these limitations are very clearly printed on Page 47 of Prime, about half way into the first paragraph.
There is absolutely no requirement whatsoever to move towards the charge target.


A model with reach cannot swing behind a non-reaching model because of this, they'll pass about the half point, then be forced to stop to avoid UN-engaging their target.
The melee range of the charge target doesn't matter in this situation. The charger must keep the charge target in its melee range. Only the chargers melee range comes into play here.

Northern Ronin
08-27-2011, 02:34 AM
There is absolutely no requirement whatsoever to move towards the charge target.


The melee range of the charge target doesn't matter in this situation. The charger must keep the charge target in its melee range. Only the chargers melee range comes into play here.

The latter was an example of a situation that cannot happen, along with a reason for it to be the way it is.

And yes, there is a requirement to move towards the target. If you MUST choose a vector that would end you in melee ignoring distance, then logic dictates you must move towards your target. Moving away from your target is not a charge path which would end you engaged with your target, and thus is not a legal charge path to pick.

bitmatic
08-27-2011, 03:01 AM
And yes, there is a requirement to move towards the target. If you MUST choose a vector that would end you in melee ignoring distance, then logic dictates you must move towards your target. Moving away from your target is not a charge path which would end you engaged with your target, and thus is not a legal charge path to pick.

If a model with reach is in base-to-base contact with the enemy, it can charge up to 2" away from that model, and still abide by all the rules.

It is possible for a reach model to charge a large-based model it is already engaging "sideways" in a way that allows it go get a charge bonus. Part of that move will be away from the target.

There is no requirement to move towards the charge target.

Ramses0559
08-27-2011, 05:28 AM
That is incorrect can not move away because advancing requires you to face the direction you advance. So in moving away you would be facing away and be breaking the melee requirement.

I will however agree you can move at a tangent where you keep melee and move away.

bitmatic
08-27-2011, 08:22 AM
That is incorrect can not move away because advancing requires you to face the direction you advance. So in moving away you would be facing away and be breaking the melee requirement.

I will however agree you can move at a tangent where you keep melee and move away.

True. Something like Circular Vision is a requirement to do it. The Great Bears of Gallowswood can do it for instance.... I'm not saying that this will happen in every game - I am just saying that the requirement to move towards the charge target is non-existent.

vintersbastard
08-27-2011, 08:52 AM
And yes, there is a requirement to move towards the target. If you MUST choose a vector that would end you in melee ignoring distance, then logic dictates you must move towards your target. Moving away from your target is not a charge path which would end you engaged with your target, and thus is not a legal charge path to pick.
A picture is worth ten thousand words:
https://privateerpressforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6507&d=1314463660
Works for every kind of reach model.

Devilsquid
08-28-2011, 06:25 AM
To the OP:You give the unit the Charge order. You move your models. Some will move min 3" and get the charge bonus, some may just scootch a bit closer to whomever they're already in combat with. Those that moved 3" get the bonus die to damage, the other don't.

ScottEBJJ
08-28-2011, 07:30 AM
That is incorrect can not move away because advancing requires you to face the direction you advance. So in moving away you would be facing away and be breaking the melee requirement.

I will however agree you can move at a tangent where you keep melee and move away.

You are still wrong.

Just because you must keep the target in your melee range does not mean you have to.move towards your charge target. It only means you must keep the target in your melee range. There are many situations where you can do this while also moving away from your target. So saying you must move towards your target is not correct. A model with Circular Vision, Reach, and Acrobatics could start B2B with it target, charge yhrough its target and end 2 inches away on the opposite side. You can most certainly move away. There are just other requirements to fill.

Ramses0559
08-28-2011, 08:10 AM
You are still wrong.

Just because you must keep the target in your melee range does not mean you have to.move towards your charge target. It only means you must keep the target in your melee range. There are many situations where you can do this while also moving away from your target. So saying you must move towards your target is not correct. A model with Circular Vision, Reach, and Acrobatics could start B2B with it target, charge yhrough its target and end 2 inches away on the opposite side. You can most certainly move away. There are just other requirements to fill.

I wasn't wrong because if you read the post I pretty much concede you can move away on a charge but moving directly away would break melee. Circular vision was brought up after the fact and I never commented on it after.

Macallan
08-28-2011, 08:13 AM
Are you guys answering the original post?
Posts #2, 3, 6, 7, 11, 13 are incorrect. How's that helping an apparently new player?

If you have a unit that that is partially engaged because you have set up in "layers" or just couldnt get them all in what do you do if you want to charge with the unengaged models? I ask because doesnt that mean the whole unit has to charge, how can that be done when the models engaged will struggle to move 3" due to already being in b2b or at least 2".


On a related note, can a model with reach charge a heavy jack its already engaged with by charging sideways, so that its moving 3", and thenupon finishing its charge turn to face the intended target?


I tried to read through the chapter on charging/running in the book but it didnt really make it any more clear to me. Thanks for any help.
The charge rules with its erratum are very clear. Do exactly as it says.
The whole unit does not have to charge. Each model has to either charge or run.
Nowhere does it say that you must charge at least 3". So you do not have to.
If you charge at least 3", your first attack gets boosted damage.
When you charge, once your target is in your melee range, it must stay it your melee range.

11on1d6, if there are lingering issues, feel free to start a new thread.

edit. Yes, Ramses0559, you were wrong. You said post #12 was incorrect. It is correct.

edit2. And BTW, "engaged with" means strictly nothing.
There is: "in melee", "engaging" and "engaged by". I always find disturbing a post going on the very technical parts of a rule and yet using game terms that don't exist.

The fact that the target model has reach does have some importance when charging a model engaging you ; not for making the charge successful, but to avoid free strikes. And since I don't remember seing a model charging another model and wanting to be free striked by this very model, I guess it matters.