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View Full Version : Gun fighter vs Reach = 1.5" disabled zone?



Esoremada
12-05-2011, 10:29 PM
If I have ATGM in an eCaine list shoot at a reach unit in melee with a bunch of them using Thunderbolt and roll a 1 for push back, then it's out of my melee range of .5 but I'm still in melee combat. Does this mean between .5 and 2 inches from reach models Gun Fighters are unable to make any sort of attack?

Oops thought I was putting this in the rules forum. Oh well, Cygnar have a lot of GF anyways.

Saphin
12-05-2011, 10:45 PM
The real question is why are you using Thunderbolt when you're engaged in close combat? You should be using Critical Brutal Damage :P

but seriously I think that is the jist of it, you are still engaged and unable to make a ranged attack without incurring the firing into melee penalty.
Being in someones Reach but pushing them out of yours still means you're engaged. It's actually pretty tactical for the opponent to keep an enemy at arms length (pun not intended).

Esoremada
12-05-2011, 10:50 PM
So lets say I mean to move Black 13th in to melee combat with a jack' with reach and really low MAT then want to make a Gun Fighter attack but realize I'm actually .6 away and decide to make a ranged attack. This means that this Cygnar gunman suddenly has -4 Rat and might accidentally shoot himself in the foot if he misses because he's in the melee combat?

Saphin
12-05-2011, 11:10 PM
Sorry, i just dug up my rules tome and re-read it. You wouldn't be able to make a ranged attack because you're considered engaged, even if you're not engaging. You can only shoot into melee if you, yourself are not engaged.
In the example you stated it would mean the Black 13th are pretty much just screwed and can't shoot at anything.

It is a baffling i must admit

Xnath
12-05-2011, 11:14 PM
When a model is either engaged or engaging, it is in melee, which prevents it from making ranged attacks. Page 51 prime.

For gun fighter rules, read page 63 prime. Basically the melee range of gunfighter is 0.5 inches, so you can make ranged attacks against models in that melee range.
If they are 1.5 inches away, you are not in melee range. If they have reach and are 1.5 inches away, they are engaged with you, but you are not engaged with them, preventing you from shooting as gun fighter reduces range to 0.5 inches.

Note: Using the above rules, if a ranged attack misses, it can still target another random model in melee range, EXCLUDING the shooter and their original target.
Note: There is no aiming bonus when targeting model in melee range.

tsochung
12-05-2011, 11:15 PM
- deleted -

SageofLodoss
12-06-2011, 08:27 AM
When a model is either engaged or engaging, it is in melee, which prevents it from making ranged attacks. Page 51 prime.

For gun fighter rules, read page 63 prime. Basically the melee range of gunfighter is 0.5 inches, so you can make ranged attacks against models in that melee range.

Errata that the melee range of gunfighter is that model's melee range. If you have a reach weapon, and gunfighter, your gunfighter melee range is 2 inches.

solkan
12-06-2011, 09:14 AM
Because it's important, and not in the official errata yet, as far as I can tell, here's the Infernal post making the rules change:

https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?30097-Gunfighter-and-Melee-range&p=439413&viewfull=1#post439413

A model with the Gunfighter advantage can make ranged attacks targeting models in its melee range. If a Gunfighter does not have a melee range, it gains a melee range of 0.5".

So if you have a Weapon with "Reach", you can make Gunfighter attacks also in the range from 0.5" - 2".

Yes, this is a change from an earlier ruling.

Hiro
12-06-2011, 11:33 AM
if you mean the b13 shot another model that are in his 0.5 melee range , then he won't suffer -4 rat penalty , but he still have chance to hit himself if he miss.
if you mean the b13 want to shot shot the jack that are engaging him, then no , he can't shot it at all in this case.

You cannot hit yourself on a miss in melee because you are not an eligible target in your own LOS.

Geekly
12-07-2011, 06:00 AM
If the model with Gunfighter is within 0.5"-2" of a model with Reach, they are considered to be engaged, but not engaging, so they cannot perform the ranged attacks allowed by Gunfighter. They need to be within melee range (0.5") to attack, but they're not. They're also within melee range of the model with reach, and are engaged, so they cannot perform normal range attacks either.

So, yes, there is a dead zone for models with Gunfighter vs. models with Reach. This assumes the model with Gunfighter does not also have Reach.

EvilJosh
12-07-2011, 10:51 AM
If the model with Gunfighter is within 0.5"-2" of a model with Reach, they are considered to be engaged, but not engaging, so they cannot perform the ranged attacks allowed by Gunfighter. They need to be within melee range (0.5") to attack, but they're not. They're also within melee range of the model with reach, and are engaged, so they cannot perform normal range attacks either.

So, yes, there is a dead zone for models with Gunfighter vs. models with Reach. This assumes the model with Gunfighter does not also have Reach.

This makes sense to me as I always saw gunfighter as a way to give someone with no melee weapons the ability to fight in melee as opposed to being a way to counteract reach.

You would have the same dead zone if you were a model with a regular melee weapon and a regular range weapon fighting against a model with reach.

Valander
12-07-2011, 01:21 PM
Because it's important, and not in the official errata yet, as far as I can tell, here's the Infernal post making the rules change:

https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?30097-Gunfighter-and-Melee-range&p=439413&viewfull=1#post439413
I believe that link answers all the questions about this. To recap:

Gunfighter allows you to make ranged attacks at targets in your melee range. If you don't have a melee weapon, Gunfighter grants you a 0.5" melee range. If you have another weapon with reach then you may still make Gunfighter attacks in that range. Gunfighter does not otherwise allow you to bypass the restriction on making ranged attacks while engaged except in the cases outlined above.

If you have Gunfighter, but no reach, and Re engaged by a model with reach at between 0.5" and 2", you cannot make any ranged attacks.