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hausdorff space
12-07-2011, 10:51 AM
Since the other thread got locked without a full set of answers; and it would be good to finally have one referable thread that clearly explains the ability... especially as there's been conflicting answers given in different places.


Tag Along prevents a Soulless Escort from obtaining any special abilities of the unit it is attached to (with the exception of AD).

This obviously includes the generic special rules on a unit card; and (IIRC by the tactical tip) Tactics conferred by a UA, as Tactics add special rules to the unit card.

But what about:

Granted Abilities - These are abilities on the UA (or other) card that give a benefit to the unit while the attached model is in play.
Mini-Feats - Is this a unit special ability? can the Soulless Benefit from it? ... if yes, then what if the Mini-Feat confers a Special Ability to the unit?
Tier Bonuses - These can add special abilities to the unit (e.g. Rahn T3), would the Soulless Escort gain the Special Ability too?
Spell Effects - These can add special abilities to the unit (e.g. Mirage), would the Soulless Escort gain the Special Ability too?
Orders - Presumably the Soulless Escort cannot receive a special order from their attached units card, but what about a UA special order? can they receive those?

solkan
12-07-2011, 11:17 AM
On the one side, there's the matter of tactics. As defined in Prime Mk II,

Tactics are abilities granted to units by some unit attachments.
and the tactical tip for Tag Along,

Tactics is one of the unit abilities this model doesn't gain.

That would imply that if the ability is ever stated as being granted to the unit (or part of the description of an ability like a tactic that is defined as being granted to the unit), then Tag Along excludes the Soulless Escort.

jandrese
12-07-2011, 11:31 AM
As I read it, the Soulless can't benefit from any wording on a unit's card, or on the card of a UA. If someone casts a buff spell on the unit, then the Soulless will still get that (like Inviolable Resolve), but Tactics, Granted abilities, Tier bonuses (effectively go on the card) are all out.

If the unit had something like Hymn of Battle, the Soulless also would not benefit from that.

solkan
12-07-2011, 11:58 AM
I think it would also apply to spells/effects/whatever of the form "Target unit gains _____" because it's indicating that the unit is gaining some ability (even though that ability usually happens to affect each model in the unit).

What I'm not sure about is whether "All models in target unit _____" is considered equivalent language.

Murkhadh
12-07-2011, 12:18 PM
I think PG_hausdorff space is looking for a more fleshed out infernal ruling than was given earlier.

hausdorff space
12-07-2011, 12:39 PM
I think PG_hausdorff space is looking for a more fleshed out infernal ruling than was given earlier.That I am ... though I'm not going to go around asking for official rulings, as that displeases the rules gods ;)


I think a thread that ends with a more comprehensive understanding of the rule is needed as this rule has been brought up a fair bit; the Tactical Tip tends to cause confusion ("what is the implication in Tactics being the only gained abilities singled out?"); and, occasionally, there have been contradictory conclusions reached in different threads.

solkan
12-07-2011, 01:08 PM
Well, in that case I think you'd improve your odds of getting an Infernal response if you had some conclusions lined up that they could confirm with a simple "Yeah, that's how it works" or not. ;)

At the moment, I'd bet on a conclusion that there is no timing for Tag Along so doesn't matter when the unit gains the ability; and that any effect that either grants an ability to the unit or that grants an ability to all the models in the unit is subject to the Tag Along exclusion.

Mastershake
12-07-2011, 01:28 PM
As I read it, the Soulless can't benefit from any wording on a unit's card, or on the card of a UA. If someone casts a buff spell on the unit, then the Soulless will still get that (like Inviolable Resolve), but Tactics, Granted abilities, Tier bonuses (effectively go on the card) are all out.

If the unit had something like Hymn of Battle, the Soulless also would not benefit from that.

This seems like an overly broad interpretation considering all the special rule says is:

Tag Along - This model does not gain the abilities of the unit to which it is attached except Advanced Deployment.

A conferred ability by another model is not really an ability "of the unit", but if that's the interpretation I wouldn't be suprised if a spell like Mirage that confers Apparition also didn't work. While I understand the intent of the ability, i.e. trying to not break the Soulless for every unit they could ever concievably make for Ret, the rule is poorly worded for defining what it does and doesn't work for. My reading is that abilities of the unit are not conferred, but abilities specific to models in the unit can get give benefits. For example:

If you read the various mini-feats in Ret, none of them are on the unit and none of them grant abilities to the unit. Why does this not work with a soulless escort? Obviously Whites of their Eyes and Extended Fire does nothing for the model, but why wouldn't Team Effort affect them?

Also you could easily argue (in fact I will, don't mind if I do), that it doesn't matter if the soulless gains the mini-feat ability, since nobody else in the unit does anyways and regardless of if it gains the ability, there's nothing in the wording of Tag Along to prevent the model from benefitting from the effect since the other troopers in the unit all lack the Team Effort special rule as well and it doesn't seem to stop them.

Valander
12-07-2011, 01:39 PM
Checking. I have an opinion, but I want to make sure it's in line with the intent and what other Infernals interpret here.

hausdorff space
12-07-2011, 01:41 PM
Well, in that case I think you'd improve your odds of getting an Infernal response if you had some conclusions lined up that they could confirm with a simple "Yeah, that's how it works" or not. ;)

At the moment, I'd bet on a conclusion that there is no timing for Tag Along so doesn't matter when the unit gains the ability; and that any effect that either grants an ability to the unit or that grants an ability to all the models in the unit is subject to the Tag Along exclusion.That would be my assumption too ... on keeping things simple; but I have seen it confirmed that Soulless get tier benefits, and elsewhere that they don't; so the situation is obvious more complicated than is often appreciated.

It also still leaves the question of mini-feat open, and that answer seems contradictory to the idea that you can cast snipe on a Soulless Escort, which will then benefit the unit but the Soulless itself won't have the ability at all. Then however, given the Soulless is considered a part of the unit, if the unit as a whole is gain something it didn't have shouldn't it, in theory, gain it it too ... how is this any different to mini-feats, granted effects or orders - a unit of Nyss doesn't have Assault but irrespective of this, as the leader, Murdoch can issue the order to them and they will get the benefits regardless.

If I was to draw up what I consider to be a sensible answer to the "Tag Along situation", I would say the Soulless Escort does not get the Special Abilities (on the card) of the unit it is attached to, and note that these abilities are distinct to those found on other attachments cards. This would mean that the Soulless Escort would not gain Tactics as these are conferred by an attachment to the 'parent' unit, but would gain granted abilities, mini-feats, spell abilities and receive orders as it is still a part of the overall unit. But I am sure I have seen rulings, and/or rule-forum conclusions that go against this.


EDIT: ninja'd-ish by Mastershake and Valander ... serves me right for being a slow writing fool.

Valander
12-07-2011, 08:06 PM
Tag Along prevents a Soulless Escort from obtaining any special abilities of the unit it is attached to (with the exception of AD).

This obviously includes the generic special rules on a unit card; and (IIRC by the tactical tip) Tactics conferred by a UA, as Tactics add special rules to the unit card.

But what about:

Granted Abilities - These are abilities on the UA (or other) card that give a benefit to the unit while the attached model is in play.
Mini-Feats - Is this a unit special ability? can the Soulless Benefit from it? ... if yes, then what if the Mini-Feat confers a Special Ability to the unit?
Tier Bonuses - These can add special abilities to the unit (e.g. Rahn T3), would the Soulless Escort gain the Special Ability too?
Spell Effects - These can add special abilities to the unit (e.g. Mirage), would the Soulless Escort gain the Special Ability too?
Orders - Presumably a the Soulless Escort cannot receive a special order from their attached units card, but what about a UA special order? can they receive those?
Basically, if it's an "ability on the unit card" Tag Along does not get it, unless it is Advance Deploy. More details:


Granted Abilities: considered "on the unit card". So no.
Mini-Feats: Kind of depends, but generally this would be something that affects the unit. The Tag Along model itself couldn't "trigger" the ability, but can probably benefit from unit-affecting things.
Tier Bonuses: depends on the exact bonus. If it calls out the unit by name, then the Tag Along doesn't get it (e.g., if it granted Stealth to "dawnguard models" then it would not affect the Tag Along. If it granted Stealth to "one unit" and you chose the unit that had the Tag Along then it gains Stealth.)
Spell Effects: Yes, unless it specifically states a certain type of model (right now, there aren't any such spells--it would have to say something like "Dawnguard Models" to fall under the "no" here; other unit-affecting spell benefits will apply).
Orders: All models in formation when an order is given must follow the order. In the case of a Tag Along, it would have to follow it as much as possible, though it may not be able to meet all the conditions of the order.
Tactics are a no, per tactical tip.
Elite Cadre: no.
I realize that some of this may be vague, but there are frankly a few too many possible combinations to go through to enumerate every possibility, especially with only one Tag Along model at the present time. The rule of thumb is "if it's on the card, they don't get it, unless it's Advance Deploy. Granted, Tactics, Elite Cadre are considered 'on the card.'"

hausdorff space
12-07-2011, 09:33 PM
Cheers Valander

I think that pretty much settles it, two quick clarifications




Mini-Feats: Kind of depends, but generally this would be something that affects the unit. The Tag Along model itself couldn't "trigger" the ability, but can probably benefit from unit-affecting things.
Orders: All models in formation when an order is given must follow the order. In the case of a Tag Along, it would have to follow it as much as possible, though it may not be able to meet all the conditions of the order.



Are there any mini-feats out there right now that the soulless escort wouldn't gain the benefits from? (I can't think of any.)
Does this mean that the Soulless escort will receive the Shield Wall order (and, as such, benefit from it); but that it "cannot" Assault as it doesn't have a ranged weapon.

Valander
12-07-2011, 10:00 PM
Cheers Valander

I think that pretty much settles it, two quick clarifications


Are there any mini-feats out there right now that the soulless escort wouldn't gain the benefits from? (I can't think of any.)
None that I can think of at the moment, either, but wanted to have that caveat. ;)




Does this mean that the Soulless escort will receive the Shield Wall order (and, as such, benefit from it); but that it "cannot" Assault as it doesn't have a ranged weapon.

That's my understanding, yes. Shield Wall may seem a little odd, but since the order states affected models (i.e., those that received the order) gain the benefit for being b2b with other models in the unit, I can't find a valid reason, rules-wise, that would disallow it.

Murkhadh
12-08-2011, 06:39 AM
Sorry if this was explained, but I jut wanted to make sure I understand.

The souless "will" get the +2 to hit and damage from the halberdiers mini feat?

If a souless and one halberdier are the only 2 things in melee with their target on mini feat turn, the souless counts as the other model from the unit so that the halberdier gets the +2 +2?

he will also get the +4 armor from being in a shield wall?

And if a halberdier is on b2b with only the souless, that halberdier will also get his +4 armor?

Siranaul
12-08-2011, 08:24 AM
See, not as cut and dry. This is a far different response than when I asked the same question.

vintersbastard
12-08-2011, 09:08 AM
The souless (...) will also get the +4 armor from being in a shield wall?

And if a halberdier is on b2b with only the souless, that halberdier will also get his +4 armor?
Yes to both, since both are in the same unit and affected by the order (which are the only prerequisites).

Ravir
12-08-2011, 09:32 AM
Simplified via RPG symantics: Abilities on the card such as Elite Cadre, Tactics, and other "always on" attributes are "passive" benefits. The unit gets them at all times simply because they exist. Shield Wall and the mini-feat are "active" effects that the unit can activate, but do not benefit from at all times. Soulless Escorts gain no passive benefits from a unit, but can benefit from active effects.

Uratoh
12-08-2011, 07:41 PM
THis brings back a question (it's the same as the topic but more specific, I think) I had awhile back. How does the Soulless Escort react to the 'Ride-By Attack' order if he's attached to the cav unit?

hausdorff space
12-13-2011, 02:42 AM
Adding an extra addition question, in the interest of keeping the explanations of tag along all together.

Units and Leader - as a member of the unit the Soulless Escort can obviously become a leader; but what about the situation with weapon crews, where the leader is replaced with the Weapon.
ANSWER: THIS CANNOT HAPPEN AT ALL, SEs cannot be attached to Weapon Crews.

As far as I can tell replacing the Soulless is kosher as Weapon Crew seems to be given in the book as a term rather than a special ability.

solkan
12-13-2011, 03:13 AM
I don't think field promotion works that way. From page 70, "When the Leader model in a unit is destroyed or removed from play, immediately promote a Grunt model in the unit to become the new Leader by replacing the Grunt with the Leader model." And as per page 71, "Models in attachments are not grunts." And as a Retribution Weapon Attachment, that means that it's not a Grunt.

So the Soulless Escort shouldn't ever be used to replace the Leader model. It might end up getting appointed Unit Commander at some point, but that doesn't change the model or its abilities.

hausdorff space
12-13-2011, 03:16 AM
Actually ... looking at the attachment rules (in the old PDFs) they might not even be able to be attached to Weapon Crews.
If someone can confirm that, then this new question is irrelevant. yay.

solkan
12-13-2011, 03:35 AM
Second sentence in Weapon Crews on page 71: "Weapon crews cannot have attachments."