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Rolling_Thunder
12-20-2011, 01:55 PM
Can you use "Go to Ground", after movement, but before making the ranged attack, even if you did not end in melee range of your charge target?

Masanori
12-20-2011, 04:21 PM
I'm sorry yer question is a little confusing.

what does it matter if you 'have or have not made a range attack' before using Go to Ground?

Rolling_Thunder
12-20-2011, 04:30 PM
I'm sorry yer question is a little confusing.

what does it matter if you 'have or have not made a range attack' before using Go to Ground?

well after you make the ranged attack the game is aware that you failed a charge, and your activation immediately ends. Just making sure you have the ability to use go to ground after the movement but before the attack is made. I'm around 99% sure it works, but checking is useful.

Masanori
12-20-2011, 04:41 PM
rite first of, the person that gives the 'go to ground ability' at anytime is not the unit but Murdoch. Which means yes u can 'go to ground' after a failed assault. it does not matter if your unit did or did not shoot it all comes down to Murdoch's activation.
I leave the 'how' that can be done answer/question to the tactics forum. Have fun

sleet01
12-20-2011, 04:41 PM
Nope, if you want to Assault and Go To Ground on the whole unit and Jonas you have do this:

1) Declare Assault.
2) Make sure Jonas ends up in melee range with something - can be an enemy, but most likely will have to be a member of his unit. It must be his charge target.
3) Resolve Assault ranged attacks.
4) If Jonas did not kill his charge target, resolve his charge attack. If he did, go directly to step 5.
5) Declare Go to Ground.

The reason for this is that the Assault ranged attack is actually part of the special Assault version of the Charge *move*, and cannot be interrupted. So Jonas can't declare G2G between moving and shooting when assaulting. This means he has to do it between the move and melee attack, or after the melee attack. If he declares G2G after the move but before his Charge attack then he and his target become engaged/engaging and both lose the Go To Ground benefit. So you have to do it *after* the melee attack is resolved.

Edit: this was always my interpretation, but it appears that the old rules question (https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?57539-Quick-Murdoch-question&highlight=murdoch+assault+ground) did not ever get resolved or locked, so it's still up in the air.

Masanori
12-20-2011, 05:27 PM
There is another way to do what was said above, but it will very likely leave Murdoch xposed while everyone benefits from Go to Ground.

So...
1. declare charge/run
2. models in the unit other than murdoch, charge/assault or run
3. when u activate murdoch,
a. if u have to 'run' to catch up to yer unit than it best to use go to ground and than run him up. it does xpose him to shooting
b. if u want to charge knowing that you will fail, but still get the assault of, then you still declare go to ground before you move his charge distance, which will still expose him but give the unit go to ground still

den there is option C, the optimum use of Go to Ground, which is the one mentioned above. and that works best if u charge yer own friendly model.
have fun

vintersbastard
12-20-2011, 05:28 PM
Just one addendum, sleet01: Murdoch can use Go to Ground before he makes his Assault shot (since it happens after movement).

The reason that he can't use it if he failed his charge is that Assault gives a specific exception for the Assault shot as far as ending activation is concerned, but does not extend this exception to other abilities.

Rolling_Thunder
12-20-2011, 05:36 PM
Just one addendum, sleet01: Murdoch can use Go to Ground before he makes his Assault shot (since it happens after movement).

The reason that he can't use it if he failed his charge is that Assault gives a specific exception for the Assault shot as far as ending activation is concerned, but does not extend this exception to other abilities.

hrm, this is the impression I was under as well. Hopefully an infernal will check in, and confirm or deny on these.

sleet01
12-20-2011, 05:53 PM
Just one addendum, sleet01: Murdoch can use Go to Ground before he makes his Assault shot (since it happens after movement).


Unless you can find a ruling supporting this stance, I respectfully must disagree. Assault doesn't add another attack after moving, it modifies the Charge movement to include a ranged attack. You are not allowed to interrupt movement, ergo there is no "between" to declare Go to Ground in. Jonas' Charge movement ends with the ranged attack and not before.

Edit: it appears the Infernals agree with me (or vice-versa). (https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?62344-Failed-charge-assault-and-casting-spells.&highlight=Assault+spell)

Hiro
12-20-2011, 08:50 PM
The link to the infernal ruling does not say anything about whether you can use an anytime ability between assault charge movement and the assault shot. Maudlin simply says what we know already, that a failed charge ends an activation, but you still get the assault shot because the special rule says so.

My interpretation (and agreeing with @vintersbastard) is simpler than yours: the assault shot is an attack granted by the order, not a change to the movement rules. So once charge movement is complete you can use the anytime ability as long as the charge was successful, then you do the attack(s).

tuttleboy
12-20-2011, 09:40 PM
Looking at the thread linked above (https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?62344-Failed-charge-assault-and-casting-spells&p=853561&viewfull=1#post853561), it looks to me like you check for charge success/failure as soon as you finish the assault movement. If you fail to make it into charge range, you suffer the effects of a failed charge and the only thing you're allowed to do is the make the shot, then you're action ends immediatly...no exceptions or other actions just the shot, because the only thing assault says you can do if you fail the charge is take the shot.

Masanori
12-20-2011, 09:52 PM
sleet is correct in regards to the assault/fail situation. It's hard to determine as I can see "go to ground" does say anytime during activation, however it is normally played with specific start/stops. So before declaring a charge/run or advancing, u can use it. After declaring a successful run/charge or simple advance you can use it. Assault as sleet says is a combined movement/shooting. There is not 'moment' in between for murdoch to use "go to ground"

But as the others mentioned, if u fail yer charge, that is do not get into melee wth opponent, u get to shoot but activation ends IMMEDIATELY. so no use of ANY abilities after that. Which is why I suggested using the ability before Murdoch does his own assault.

sleet01
12-20-2011, 10:16 PM
@Hiro: The specific question was whether a warcaster could cast a spell - an anytime ability - after the assault movement, but before the assault attack, when the charge failed. The answer was "no" there, so it should be "no" here as well.

vintersbastard
12-21-2011, 08:06 AM
Unless you can find a ruling supporting this stance, I respectfully must disagree. Assault doesn't add another attack after moving, it modifies the Charge movement to include a ranged attack. You are not allowed to interrupt movement, ergo there is no "between" to declare Go to Ground in. Jonas' Charge movement ends with the ranged attack and not before.The Assault shot comes after movement is finished, in a completely separate step (cf. here (https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?10361-defensive-strike-VS-assult-which-happens-first&p=551689&viewfull=1#post551689)), so you should be able to use any-time abilities before taking the shot (since you're not moving anymore).

I share Hiro's understanding of Maudlin's ruling, and why it doesn't support your reasoning.

sleet01
12-21-2011, 08:18 AM
You linked to an unresolved thread where a bunch of people misrepresented what LunaticCalm said in yet *another* thread, on the interaction of Assault and Refuge. This is not convincing, but I can tell you really really want this to work and will brook no counter-argument, so I'm just going to wait for an infernal as well

Rolling_Thunder
12-21-2011, 08:37 AM
really it comes down to the difference in mini-feats and spells (or if there is one). Spells specifically say they can't be cast during a move, Mini-feats don't have that clause, they simply say anytime during activation.

this one is close enough that we basically have no choice but to wait for an infernal :-/.

vintersbastard
12-21-2011, 09:18 AM
You linked to an unresolved thread where a bunch of people misrepresented what LunaticCalm said in yet *another* thread, ...Macallan isn't an Infernal? That's news to me. Just because a ruling is not at the end of a thread does not mean it's not a ruling.

solkan
12-21-2011, 09:38 AM
really it comes down to the difference in mini-feats and spells (or if there is one). Spells specifically say they can't be cast during a move, Mini-feats don't have that clause, they simply say anytime during activation.

Please see page 236 of Primal Mk II or 244 of Prime Mk II. There's a section titled AT ANY TIME DURING THIS MODEL'S ACTIVATION which explains what "anytime during activation" means, and it means that EVERYTHING effectively has that clause by default.

Rolling_Thunder
12-21-2011, 09:41 AM
Please see page 236 of Primal Mk II or 244 of Prime Mk II. There's a section titled AT ANY TIME DURING THIS MODEL'S ACTIVATION which explains what "anytime during activation" means, and it means that EVERYTHING effectively has that clause in it.

sweet, I had overlooked that. I'm currently inclined to agree with sleet, after seeing the ruling on spell casting. I would still like purple confirmation on either side.

sleet01
12-21-2011, 09:47 AM
Macallan isn't an Infernal? That's news to me. Just because a ruling is not at the end of a thread does not mean it's not a ruling.

My bad; the first time I followed your link I missed Macallan's posting among all the other back-and-forth. But that means that the Infernals are in disagreement; all the more reason to get a third in here to straighten this out.

Macallan
12-21-2011, 12:43 PM
Regular charge:
Moves. Target not in melee range = activation ends. You don't do anything after your move.

Assault is telling you how it's different.
Moves. Target not in melee range = makes ranged attack before activation ends.

It does not allow you to do anything else. So no Go to Ground.

I honestly did not see where we (Infernals) were in disagreement.

sleet01
12-21-2011, 12:55 PM
I think the confusion arose because your ruling (from VintersBastard's link to here (https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?10361-defensive-strike-VS-assult-which-happens-first&p=551689&viewfull=1#post551689)) seems to imply a gap between the Assault movement and the Assault-granted ranged attack in which anytime abilities could trigger, based on allowing Defensive Strike to proc before the Assault ranged attack.

Edit: and thanks for clearing this up.

vintersbastard
12-21-2011, 01:46 PM
Just to reiterate this (and if it wasn't clear enough in my first post, I apologize), I was only addressing the case that Murdoch made a successful charge, which should allow him to use Go to Ground before taking his assault shot.
I claimed nothing of this kind as far as failed charges are concerned.

sleet01
12-21-2011, 03:06 PM
Pretty sure you can't do that *either*, VB. There's no point between the start of the Assault movement and the end of the Assault ranged attack where you can interrupt and activate an ability, whether or not the Assaulting model got into melee range. But that is a topic for another thread, I think. :)

Valander
12-21-2011, 04:51 PM
Macalln's post above should answer the original and follow up question. Locking this one before it goes any more off topic. ;)

Macallan
12-23-2011, 06:07 AM
No Go to ground before the Assault ranged attack whether the charge fails or not.