PDA

View Full Version : Talon reference



baronvonchaos
12-23-2011, 07:43 AM
https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?56900-Talon-and-free-strikes&highlight=talon
This is a link to a thread that I found regarding the Talon and Free strikes.

I wanted a true infernal ruling on this, because the way Stall is written, there's no timing or timeframe in which the warjack suffers Stall.

Stall - A Warjack hit by this attack suffers the Stall continuous effect. While a warjack is suffering Stall, its base def is 7 and it cannot run or charge.

Someone in the linked thread said that if a jack charged past a Talon and took a free strike that the jack could keep going because he declared the charge before he was Stalled. That doesn't make sense at all. Stall says that wajacks hit suffer stall regardless of when. Warjacks under stall cannot run or charge. Ergo the charging jack finishes out its normal movement and fails the charge if it doesn't reach its intended target. I'd contest the PG's ruling on that since there's no rules about "declaring" things exempting you from effects along the way.

quindraco
12-23-2011, 08:10 AM
Ergo the charging jack finishes out its normal movement and fails the charge if it doesn't reach its intended target.

I'm not aware of any rule in the game that resolves this way. Either the jack can complete its charge or not, but it's completely implausible that it gets to finish its charge movement (with the +3 inches) but not resolve its charge attack, provided it can get into melee with its charge target.

In terms of how to actually resolve it, I don't see how it's any different from crippling movement with a free strike, which implies the charging warjack that's been stalled has to halt at the edge of the Talon's melee arc.

solkan
12-23-2011, 08:15 AM
There's also this one which is also true, although it doesn't "count" since Valander was promoted later: https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?34087-Stall-via-Free-Strikes-Charge-yay-or-nay&p=497378&highlight=stall+charge#post497378

An effect which prevents charging isn't retroactive if applied after the charge has already been declared.

For reference, non-Infernal Valander's post is here https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?34087-Stall-via-Free-Strikes-Charge-yay-or-nay&p=497761&viewfull=1#post497761

That would be incorrect; the model would still move SPD+3 (there is nothing in Stall that states it modifies movement or speed, it only prevents initiating a charge).

baronvonchaos
12-23-2011, 11:06 AM
In terms of how to actually resolve it, I don't see how it's any different from crippling movement with a free strike, which implies the charging warjack that's been stalled has to halt at the edge of the Talon's melee arc.

Yes, This actually makes more sense.



That would be incorrect; the model would still move SPD+3 (there is nothing in Stall that states it modifies movement or speed, it only prevents initiating a charge).

That's not true. There's nothing about "Initiating" in the wording of stall. It simply says "cannot charge". In the book, "Cannot" overrides can, whether it's "initiated" or not is not part of the wording.

2nd and 4th sentence under "Charging" {Prime Mk2 pg. 46} "A model suffering a penalty to its SPD or movement for any other reason than rough terrain cannot charge regardless of offsetting bonuses. [...] A model must have normal movement and action to be able to be able to charge."

I know it doesn't say "crippled movement", but the 2nd sentence {Prime Mk2 Pg 66} in there states, "A model that has its Movement system crippled while advancing as part of a charge, slam, or trample immediately stops advancing, and its activation ends."

A model suffering Stall, cannot run or charge. If you cannot run or charge, whether you declare it or not doesn't supercede the rules.

Mr. Golden Deal
12-23-2011, 11:13 AM
The stall continuous effect isn't crippled movement, though. It only does what it says it does. Since the model is already charging when it would suffer the free strike, it remains charging.

quindraco
12-23-2011, 11:19 AM
The stall continuous effect isn't crippled movement, though. It only does what it says it does. Since the model is already charging when it would suffer the free strike, it remains charging.

There are many ways to inflict this status without Stall; for example, a variety of feats turn off charging in the control area of the feater, and a model could start outside said control area and charge into it. It's never happened to me so I can't cite experience, but the question isn't specific to stall. I'm perfectly willing to admit I might be wrong in my interpretation.

solkan
12-23-2011, 12:55 PM
That's not true. There's nothing about "Initiating" in the wording of stall. It simply says "cannot charge". In the book, "Cannot" overrides can, whether it's "initiated" or not is not part of the wording.


The model is already charging at the point when the free strike hits it, so it continues to be a charging model and continues following those rules. All "cannot charge" does is prevent a model from initiating the charge.

Valander
12-23-2011, 03:55 PM
An effect which prevents charging isn't retroactive if applied after the charge has already been declared.

For reference, non-Infernal Valander's post is herehttps://privateerpressforums.com/show...l=1#post497761 (https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?34087-Stall-via-Free-Strikes-Charge-yay-or-nay&p=497761&viewfull=1#post497761)

https://privateerpressforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by non-Infernal Valander
That would be incorrect; the model would still move SPD+3 (there is nothing in Stall that states it modifies movement or speed, it only prevents initiating a charge).




Guess what I'm posting about now... ;)

The above is correct.

TLSWalters
12-23-2011, 08:11 PM
Okay, Stall doesn't stop a charge that was declared before the charge. DONE. Talon is as crappy as ever! :P

baronvonchaos
12-27-2011, 08:19 AM
Sounds like it was an oversight with PPS. I imagine it wasn't supposed to work like that, but it's almost impossible with the scale of this game to account for everything in every circumstance.

My question was why would an affected model not suffer the effects?

There are many ways to inflict this status without Stall; for example, a variety of feats turn off charging in the control area of the feater, and a model could start outside said control area and charge into it. It's never happened to me so I can't cite experience, but the question isn't specific to stall. I'm perfectly willing to admit I might be wrong in my interpretation.

This helps it at least make sense to me.

Thanks all.

DarkLegacy
12-27-2011, 09:10 AM
Sounds like it was an oversight with PPS. I imagine it wasn't supposed to work like that, but it's almost impossible with the scale of this game to account for everything in every circumstance.

My question was why would an affected model not suffer the effects?


This helps it at least make sense to me.

Thanks all.
How can it be an oversight when an Infernal, who speaks for PPS in regards to rule questions, says it works the way they intended?

Also, the warjack is suffering the effects of Stall, it just doesn't do what you want it to in this circumstance. Stall prevents charging, but this model is already in its movement and Stall doesn't stop a charge once it is started.

Macallan
12-27-2011, 09:39 AM
Not an oversight as far as I know.