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rabid_rooster19
01-31-2012, 12:00 PM
If you are playing timed turns using steamroller rules and time runs out while rolling attack rolls for a simultaneous attack, how do you finish resolving all the attacks? So for example, your spray goes over 3 models and you only roll attack rolls against 2 before time runs out, do you continue to roll the final attack roll against the third model and then all damage rolls since it is simultaneous? Do you only roll damage rolls for the 2 models that you rolled attack rolls for before time ran out, or do you only roll the damage roll for the last model that was hit?

Steamroller rules say "If the player is in the process of making a roll of any kind after movement is complete, he completes that single roll, then his turn ends. If the roll is an attack roll that directly hits its target, resolve the direct hit damage roll as well.

Because it says single roll, it seems as though you would only roll one damage roll against the last model that was hit, but I'm unsure if it being a simultaneous attack would make it an exception. Since they are allowing you to resolve an attack that has already hit, it seems odd that they would not allow you to resolve all of the attacks that have already hit. I could also see it being allowed to finish all the attack rolls and damage rolls since it is simultaneous and each attack roll is really only part of one single attack.

Some clarification on this would be much appreciated.

x3tsniper
01-31-2012, 12:21 PM
You roll hit then damage, hit then damage for a spray unless I am mistaken. You don't roll to hit all the models and then roll damage. I would guess you would roll the hit and then finish against that one model if it is dice down.

Panzervike
01-31-2012, 01:03 PM
https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?66862-Resolving-simultaneous-attacks&highlight=resolving+simultaneous+attacks

Above link clarifies that in a simultaneous attack, all attack rolls against eligible models are made and then all damage rolls against models hit are rolled. So roll all attack and then roll all damage.

Since each hit made in the simultaneous attack is considered a direct hit, as per Steamroller instructions, you would resolve all outstanding damage rolls to a directly hit model at the time that dice down is called.

juckto
01-31-2012, 01:14 PM
Example One (uninterrupted attack):
You place the template and cover 3 guys.
You roll the attack dice against the first one.
You roll the attack dice against the 2nd one.
You roll the attack dice against the 3rd one.
You roll the damage dice against the 1st one.
You roll the damage dice against the 2nd one.
You roll the damage dice against the 3rd one.

Example two (interrupted while attacking):
You place the template and cover 3 guys.
You roll the attack dice against the first one.
You pick up the dice to roll the attack dice against the 2nd one.
Dice down is called.
You roll the attack dice against the 2nd one.
Because it is a roll that "directly hits its target", you roll damage dice against the 2nd model, then you stop.


Example three (interrupted while damaging):
You place the template and cover 3 guys.
You roll the attack dice against the first one.
You roll the attack dice against the 2nd one.
You roll the attack dice against the 3rd one.
You pick up the dice to roll the damage dice against the 1st one.
Dice down is called.
You roll the damage dice against the 1st one.
Because it is a roll "of any kind", you stop.


+Edit, my intrepretation only, based on a strict RAW of the "dice down" rules.

Panzervike
01-31-2012, 01:47 PM
Example One (uninterrupted attack):

Example two (interrupted while attacking):
You place the template and cover 3 guys.
You roll the attack dice against the first one.
You pick up the dice to roll the attack dice against the 2nd one.
Dice down is called.
You roll the attack dice against the 2nd one.
Because it is a roll that "directly hits its target", you roll damage dice against the 2nd model, then you stop.


Example three (interrupted while damaging):
You place the template and cover 3 guys.
You roll the attack dice against the first one.
You roll the attack dice against the 2nd one.
You roll the attack dice against the 3rd one.
You pick up the dice to roll the damage dice against the 1st one.
Dice down is called.
You roll the damage dice against the 1st one.
Because it is a roll "of any kind", you stop.

So even if you successfully hit 3 of the targets in a simultaneous attack, if dice down is called you do not get to resolve damage for them all, but only 1 of them? Even with fact that all 3 are considered to be hit by a single attack?

The phrase "single roll" I believe is referencing the current attack at hand, which if you were rolling to hit on model 3 of 4, I would take that as instruction to stop rolling additional attacks. Since the actual attack that hit the model you currently just rolled for also hit 2 others, the damage roll granted by the rules after dice down is called should apply to all models hit by the simultaneous attack. The reason I am thinking this is because how the MKII book spells it out on page 145 in the "Attack Main Sequence". The instructions in there state that you roll all damage at once (step 10), whereas the targeting and attacking process goes through several steps (1-6).

One other tidbit that might be of interest on how this clarification ends up being decided on is that Valander mentions in one of his posts in the link I posted above that the order in which you roll attacks and roll damage in their respective phases does not matter. If you do only get to roll damage on one model as a result of the topic, that piece of info would have me believe you may pick any of the hit models to be the intended target.

juckto
01-31-2012, 01:52 PM
The phrase "single roll" is referencing the current attack
The phrase "single roll" is referencing a single roll of dice.

@ndreas
02-02-2012, 06:33 AM
... until now, for me nothing is clear.

As Panzervike states, if that "single roll" is only meant to be a roll for one model, it would clearly make some difference if you choose between targets while making your attack rolls for this so-called simultaneous attack.

If you see your time running out, just choose the most important target and try to get that "single roll" executed before dice down is called to get it killed. And THAT would make a special targeted attack out of an attack that is considered to be simultaneous with no preferred target under the spray.

Sounds not right in my ears.

vintersbastard
02-02-2012, 07:41 AM
... until now, for me nothing is clear.

As Panzervike states, if that "single roll" is only meant to be a roll for one model, it would clearly make some difference if you choose between targets while making your attack rolls for this so-called simultaneous attack.

If you see your time running out, just choose the most important target and try to get that "single roll" executed before dice down is called to get it killed. And THAT would make a special targeted attack out of an attack that is considered to be simultaneous with no preferred target under the spray.

Sounds not right in my ears.
It's actually fairly simple: You apply a strict reading of the following:

If the player is in the process of making a roll of any kind, he completes that single roll, then the turn and game end. If the roll is an attack roll that directly hits its target, resolve the direct hit damage roll as well.
So, in the case of a spray, if you are still making the attack rolls, you get to make the damage roll against the target only. Against any other model under the template you do not get to make the damage roll, since it's not the target. Simultaneity really doesn't enter into it anymore, since the rules specifically address what manner of rolls you get (even though your time is up).

Every other kind of simultaneous attack doesn't have that problem, since they either make only one attack roll with a single model being the only target (AOEs), or the attack and damage roll against a single target happen in immediate succession, before switching to the next target (e.g. Backswing and Strafe). See here (https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?69212-Backswing&p=949519#post949519) for the ruling on the latter matter.

Panzervike
02-02-2012, 10:26 AM
It's actually fairly simple: You apply a strict reading of the following:

So, in the case of a spray, if you are still making the attack rolls, you get to make the damage roll against the targetl only.

When you make a spray attack, you only target 1 model. The rest that fall under the template are not subject to targeting rules and you make a ranged attack roll against them. Since only 1 model is targeted and the SR2012 rules only talk about direct hits to the target, would that mean that only the model targeted by the spray would be eligible for the damage roll?

I know that is very literal, but if you take the words of the "Attack Main Sequence" literally, it would have all damage rolls from successful hits resolve themselves in one action.

vintersbastard
02-02-2012, 11:39 AM
When you make a spray attack, you only target 1 model. The rest that fall under the template are not subject to targeting rules and you make a ranged attack roll against them. Since only 1 model is targeted and the SR2012 rules only talk about direct hits to the target, would that mean that only the model targeted by the spray would be eligible for the damage roll?
That's exactly what I meant.

Panzervike
02-02-2012, 11:52 AM
So how would this work if the model you target with the spray attack is out of range? Rules state that even if the model targeted by the spray is out of range all models under the spray template must have an attack roll made against them. Would none of the models receive a damage roll against them since they were not targeted by the attack?

rabid_rooster19
02-02-2012, 11:56 AM
It seems to me that vintersbastard's reasoning makes the most sense for a literal translation, but it would not answer the question of what to do in the case that there is no target declared. I believe, for example, that a bile thrall purge is a simultaneous attack, but there is no target as anything within 6" of his front arc whose LOS is not blocked by terrain is hit automatically, and also directly hit according to pg 57.


Sometimes a special rule causes an attack to hit automatically. Such automatic hits are also direct hits.

So in this case it seems you'd be back to picking which target you're rolling damage against if you cannot complete all the damage rolls before time runs out. That's fine if that's what we're supposed to do, but then it goes against what has been said about order not mattering in simultaneous attacks as others have mentioned.

@ndreas
02-02-2012, 12:34 PM
... and it doesn't answer the question what happens, if the target of the spray was actually rolled for attack before "dice down", and you are actually are at another attack roll for another target under the spray!
Which target do you make the damage roll for then?

Sorry, in the SR-ruling, it is only "target", not initial target, so I am not satisfied with your reading, vinter.
And that reading would again make a difference between the order I pick the targets under the spray: I would try to make all attack rolls (like needed) and then trying to get that special damage roll against the special critical target under spray done before "dice down" - like rooster wrote, we have read another answer regarding that.
Not very simultaneous attacks and damage then...

I just think the wording didn't take into account simultaneous attacks by using "single roll" (meaning no additional attacks buyable). And it should be like "single attack" - meaning sprays and AoEs are considered to happen as they were fired before "dice down" and thus won't hover in the air over the battlefield.
They just go down/lay fire on all targeted and hit models, and thus have to be rolled out.
That would be the only thing that makes sense to the rule IMHO.

In additon "a roll of any kind" could be also interpreted as a series of rolls resolving the single attack/action of spraying.

But discussion seems to be futile, we need an official interpretation here, as I don't see we would come to a conclusion.

vintersbastard
02-02-2012, 02:33 PM
It seems to me that vintersbastard's reasoning makes the most sense for a literal translation, but it would not answer the question of what to do in the case that there is no target declared. I believe, for example, that a bile thrall purge is a simultaneous attack, but there is no target as anything within 6" of his front arc whose LOS is not blocked by terrain is hit automatically, and also directly hit according to pg 57. I'm just inserting a note here: Even Purge needs a target to be declared, it just doesn't have to anywhere close to being hit.


So in this case it seems you'd be back to picking which target you're rolling damage against if you cannot complete all the damage rolls before time runs out. That's fine if that's what we're supposed to do, but then it goes against what has been said about order not mattering in simultaneous attacks as others have mentioned.You're only doing damage rolls, so you get to finish the one roll you were doing at the moment, and then you're done. The order of (damage) rolls you do before Dice Down is called is completely up to you, as it were. Since you usually don't know when it will be called (TO are supposed to keep it secret, and will simply make the call when it's time), there's no way to abuse this, either.

-----------------------------------


... and it doesn't answer the question what happens, if the target of the spray was actually rolled for attack before "dice down", and you are actually are at another attack roll for another target under the spray!That's actually an interesting question, since the Steamroller rules don't address this case specifically. For consistencies sake, I would say that you still get the damage roll against the spray target (you would get it if you were making the attack roll against it at the moment), but not against any other models.


Which target do you make the damage roll for then?
Sorry, in the SR-ruling, it is only "target", not initial target, so I am not satisfied with your reading, vinter.You're introducing a distinction here that doesn't exist within the rules. Sprays have one target (the original one), and never more. While the other models under the template can be directly hit, they don't become targets for the attack at any point.


I just think the wording didn't take into account simultaneous attacks by using "single roll" (meaning no additional attacks buyable).
The rules mean a one specific roll if they say so, not a whole host of them. Compare for example a spell like Deadeye, that gives an additional die on the first ranged attack roll (that is a single roll), and how it works on sprays (you get to choose which roll receives the die, but it only one roll gets it).

@ndreas
02-03-2012, 08:15 AM
... although your points seem somewhat valid, vintersbastard (particularly that regarding the spray target) I am not with your reading in all points.

Maybe mostly because some of the official rulings and the SR rulings are in some rare cases worded very - let's say - "poor" or even didn't take into account special situations that then had to be cleared by errata or infernal rulings afterwards (please don't ask for examples right now).

As I have to do with instructions, tutorials and some sort of rulings in RL I know about the problem to word instructions so clearly that no one can misunderstand them or even win a lawsuit by referring to them.
And compared to that, sadly some rare WM/H-rules are not worded very well or didn't take into account special situations.

So it still could be possible, that the SR ruling regarding that "single roll" didn't take into account a series of rolls evolving form a single attack... any official reply would be nice though.

Until then, we have to take the rule literally and then I think I would have to follow your reading too and should choose my targets under the spray to roll their damage in strategical order :)

tuttleboy
02-03-2012, 06:26 PM
I've just read through Purge and it doesn't look like it requires a target anymore than a Tremor attack does, the only difference in the 2 is that Tremor is a melee attack and requires a target if you use it on a charge. This may be a question for a different thread though.

solkan
02-03-2012, 06:53 PM
Trying to nip the tangent in the bud:
See Valander saying Purge requires a target: https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?12345-Quick-draw-vs-Purge&p=191936&viewfull=1#post191936

Tremor has the magic words "... and does not require a target." in its first sentence, so therefore doesn't require a target.

tuttleboy
02-03-2012, 07:41 PM
That post from V is from before he was infernalized and I can't follow the link he has... :/

...but I just read through the Ranged Combat section and ranged attacks require a target, I should have done that before my last post.


edit: Has anyone PMed Hacksaw about this?

solkan
02-03-2012, 08:00 PM
edit: Has anyone PMed Hacksaw about this?
There's a TempleCon Feb 3 to 5 banner in his signature. I assume that means he's busy this weekend. ;)

poeticruse
02-04-2012, 07:30 AM
Hacksaw has been notified of this thread. He's at templecon. Please keep continued discussion on topic and avoid adding add'l questions to this thread, so that he can answer succinctly.

@ndreas
02-04-2012, 08:55 AM
... I am curious how that turns out :)

In addition: If the "single roll" in fact refers to "one single roll" of the spray/AoE-attack, then sprays/AoE-attacks are really discriminated by the SR-"dice down" rulings: the specialty of those attacks (hitting multiple targets with a series of attack and damage rolls) would be clearly cut down, if the ruling regarding the single roll is to be taken literally - balancing problems are imaginable then if you have a spray-heavy list.

Apart from that the "fluff" of a spray/AoE-launch frozen in mid-air by the magical words "dice down" sets up a somewhat "silly" picture, compared to a single attack like an axe swing, that hit at "dice down", and therefor is allowed to roll damage, as it already had struck the enemy.

Why should the axe be allowed to cut, but the spray not to burn? Isn't a simultaneous attack meant to hit everything around in the same instant of time? Sadly we can't do multiple rolls in nanoseconds, so we have to go through the whole process of rolling every attack after one another.

But isn't "dice down" to be thought as stopping the action and preventing the players from making additional attacks and actions?
Is resolving simultaneous happening spray/AoE-attacks and -damage really considered to be an additional attack/action each roll (not by the official rules as far as my understanding goes, or they would be able to get countered individually, so why by SR rulings)?

That wouldn't make sense IMHO...

Panzervike
02-04-2012, 09:47 AM
... I am curious how that turns out :)

In addition: If the "single roll" in fact refers to "one single roll" of the spray/AoE-attack, then sprays/AoE-attacks are really discriminated by the SR-"dice down" rulings: the specialty of those attacks (hitting multiple targets with a series of attack and damage rolls) would be clearly cut down, if the ruling regarding the single roll is to be taken literally - balancing problems are imaginable then if you have a spray-heavy list.

Apart from that the "fluff" of a spray/AoE-launch frozen in mid-air by the magical words "dice down" sets up a somewhat "silly" picture, compared to a single attack like an axe swing, that hit at "dice down", and therefor is allowed to roll damage, as it already had struck the enemy.

Why should the axe be allowed to cut, but the spray not to burn? Isn't a simultaneous attack meant to hit everything around in the same instant of time? Sadly we can't do multiple rolls in nanoseconds, so we have to go through the whole process of rolling every attack after one another.

But isn't "dice down" to be thought as stopping the action and preventing the players from making additional attacks and actions?
Is resolving simultaneous happening spray/AoE-attacks and -damage really considered to be an additional attack/action each roll (not by the official rules as far as my understanding goes, or they would be able to get countered individually, so why by SR rulings)?

That wouldn't make sense IMHO...

This sums up my view perfectly. Perhaps the SR rules should have you resolve the current attack and all damage rolls associated with that attack, or something to that effect.

poeticruse
02-04-2012, 12:45 PM
Fluff is not Rules, and tournament rules doubly so.

@ndreas
02-05-2012, 12:43 PM
... that reply doesn't help and you have to read further. ;)

I know that, but I only used the "fluff" in one single sentence to picture my thoughts of the rules... and rules which follow some sense are easier remembered and easier maintained than rules without such sense.

And an axe that hits and a spray that burns are just illustrating pictures to understand the difference that the SR wording "single roll" makes between the two attacks (especially as the spray is considered as a series of simultaneous attacks).
And that difference is the reason for this discussion.

solkan
02-05-2012, 01:46 PM
And an axe that hits and a spray that burns are just illustrating pictures to understand the difference that the SR wording "single roll" makes between the two attacks (especially as the spray is considered as a series of simultaneous attacks).
And that difference is the reason for this discussion.

Nothing in the rules for simultaneous attacks causes each roll to stop being separate individual rolls. For that matter, a two handed throw is a good example of a single attack that ends up being resolved using several attack and damage rolls. You still pick up the dice and make a separate die roll for each of the rolls required by the attack.

And for simultaneous attacks, they're still also separate individual rolls. The rules for simultaneous attacks simply state that you don't resolve any of the effects of those rolls before finishing any of the rolls you're allowed to make.

Trying to preserve notions of how the game works does not trump the reason for calling "dice down"--the time allotted to play the game is over, and it's time to wrap up because tournaments need to run on schedule. In order to do that, a potentially arbitrary distinction has to be made about what you can keep resolving and what you need to just drop. The line that the people who wrote SR2012 chose was the single die roll, so that's the official cutoff.

If that means that an AOE attack hits but the damage never arrives, that's the power of the almighty tournament schedule and the voice of the Tournament Organizer. The voice of the Tournament Organizer is certainly powerful enough to cause your spray and AOE attacks to stop in mid air. After all, that voice is strong enough to bring models back into existence and cause game turns to be replayed in the event of an error. Stopping an attack in progress, or forcing you to stop rolling dice is a minor manner compared to that. :cool:

@ndreas
02-06-2012, 11:36 AM
... and that in return was a answer that helped - at least for my understanding :)

Although your first part of the answer only answers the questions in my favor IMHO, because that shows that a few attacks need to have more than one single roll to take full effect and therefor should be considered by the rules (again, at least in my opinion).

But the second part explains the problem from another point of view and puts the time schedule in emphasis.
Thus stripping it from the game of attacks and damage and put it on a basis of organizing several games in a tournament - where time happens to be a critical ressource from time to time ;)

That I can understand and compared to your last mentioned examples a not completely resolved spray seems like the "minor evil"... Thanks for your thoughts about that.