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View Full Version : Return fire (Grim) vs Witch hunter (Woldwyrd)



vengeful_spirit
02-14-2012, 05:19 AM
Had a very odd situation in a game last night. Here are the relevant rules from the cards.

Grim Angus

Return Fire: When target friendly Faction model is targeted by an enemy ranged attack, after the attack is resolved the affected model can make one normal melds or ranged attack, the Return Fire expires. Return Fire lasts for one round.

Headhunter (Grim's rifle): . . . ROF 1

Snare Gun:
Cumbersome: If this model attacks with this weapon during its activation, it cannot attack with another ranged weapon that activation. If this model attacked with another ranged weapon this activation, it cannot attack with this weapon.

. . . ROF 1

Witch Hunter: After an enemy model casts a spell within 10" of this model, this model may immediately make a normal ranged attack targeting that model.

Here's what happened. Grim advances to within 10" of the Woldwyrd and casts Return Fire on himself. My opponent chooses to trigger Witch Hunter and misses Grim. I trigger Return Fire, my opponent claims that because this attack is happening during my activation then whichever weapon I choose to fire with I would be stuck with for the turn (due to Cumbersome) and because they are both ROF 1 I cannot shoot during Grim's combat action. However because it was during my activation I could boost the attack roll.

It didn't make a massive impact on the game, but I'm not sure this is correct as the Return Fire does not occur during a combat action.

Could someone please iron this one out with the correct ruling?

vintersbastard
02-14-2012, 05:41 AM
As noted, Rate of Fire as well as Cumbersome take the whole activation into account, not just the combat action.
If you take the Return Fire shot, you're done with Grim's shooting for that activation (he may still make melee attacks if there's a [knocked down or stationary] target around, though).

solkan
02-14-2012, 07:34 AM
For comparison, here's a thread about counter-charging and similar strangeness happening during a model's activation: https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?94216-Admonition-Countercharge-Boosting&p=1261617&viewfull=1#post1261617

You activated the Grim Angus, everything that happens until his activation ends is during his activation. Interruptions to the a first model's normal sequence of events such as another model making an action outside of that other model's activation (or your model responding to that) doesn't stop it from being during the first model's activation.

In other words:

The Wyrdwold took a shot that was outside the Wyrdwold's activation during the Grim Angus's activation.
The Grim Angus's response to that shot is still during the Grim Angus's activation.
That whole sequence is happening after the Angus's movement and before it's action. That's still a defined time during the Angus's activation.

vengeful_spirit
02-15-2012, 04:20 AM
Thank you for the responses,

After reading the links I can see the argument.

I'm still confused about a few issues though.

If I cast Return fire targeting Grim again and my opponent chooses to trigger witch hunter, can I only choose to make a melee attack with return fire. If so would Grim not need to have virtuoso to choose this option? Same for making melee attacks in his combat action after shooting in the above scenario.

vintersbastard
02-15-2012, 07:02 AM
If I cast Return fire targeting Grim again and my opponent chooses to trigger witch hunter, can I only choose to make a melee attack with return fire. If so would Grim not need to have virtuoso to choose this option? Same for making melee attacks in his combat action after shooting in the above scenario.
As long as you had taken the Return Fire attack before your combat action, you're not restricted to any kind of attack for the combat action yet.

Now, if you made melee attacks during your combat action, and wanted to take a Return fire ranged attack (still during combat action), that would not work, due to lacking Virtuoso or anything alike.

vengeful_spirit
02-15-2012, 07:32 AM
Interesting,

So if Return Fire said "the affected model can make one normal melds or ranged attack (regardless of ROF)," then Grim would be able to make ranged attacks in his combat action or as a result of multiple return fires?

solkan
02-15-2012, 07:53 AM
Interesting,

So if Return Fire said "the affected model can make one normal melds or ranged attack (regardless of ROF)," then Grim would be able to make ranged attacks in his combat action or as a result of multiple return fires?

ROF and the prohibition against mixing ranged and melee attacks are two independent rules, and ignoring ROF doesn't negate the ranged/melee restriction.

You'd need additional language to address the restriction against making both melee and ranged attacks during the same activation. The statement on page 49 of Primal Mk II and Prime Mk II:

Unless otherwise noted, a model cannot make both melee and ranged attacks in the same combat action.

vengeful_spirit
02-15-2012, 08:11 AM
Sorry Solkan

I understand the melee vs ranged attacks in the same combat action interaction. I was thinking out loud about a change to the rule that would give a free ranged attack regardless of ROF as a result of return fire.

Im guessing it wasnt included because their are very few scenarios in which return fire would trigger during the affected models activation.

It's interesting that essentially the same ruling works in the favour of countercharge but against return fire because of the ROF rules.