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WolfpackEE
03-03-2012, 10:03 AM
Hi, I did a search for resolving simultaneous attacks and found some answer but not the exact answer I was looking for.

Today in a game against Cryx, I did a spray attack against a stitch thrall and two mechanithralls. I read in the forums that all attack rolls are made, then damage rolls. The question is, can I apply damage first to the Stitch Thrall first so that it doesn't collect corpse tokens for the Necrosurgeon when the mechanithralls are destroyed after damage is applied to them?

Thanks

Uratoh
03-03-2012, 10:08 AM
No, all models are considered to be 'destroyed' at the same time. Simultaneous is simultaneous. I'm not sure how this applies to the stitch thralls since they're busy being destroyed at the same time (in relevance to the corpse collecting) though.

WolfpackEE
03-03-2012, 10:14 AM
Thanks. Yeah, so the main question is ...will the stitch thrall collect corpses.

Uratoh
03-03-2012, 10:19 AM
can you put the exact text in here? it's ok for rules purposes. I don't have the cryx book etc, so knowing exactly how it works (I know the jist, but not the exact wording) could help.

WolfpackEE
03-03-2012, 10:29 AM
This text is from the Necrosurgeon. It's grunts are stitch thralls


Body Snatcher - This model gains one corpse token for every Mechanithrall or living model destroyed within 5˝ of it or a Grunt in its unit.

zyxx
03-03-2012, 11:15 AM
When it come to simultaneous effects, resolve all attack and damage rolls first. In your example, the stitch thrall would not be able to gather tokens till AFTER the attack is resolved, and if he dies in the attack as well... well, C'est la vie. Don't forget that the body snatcher rule applies to all models in the Necrosurgeon group, so if anything died within 5" of her, she can still get tokens. But not until after the attack has been resolved.

solkan
03-03-2012, 11:21 AM
Simultaneous means:

When resolving simultaneous effects, completely resolve all attack and damage rolls before applying any of the effects of the target's special rules triggered by suffering damage, being destroyed, or being removed from play.

Which means that all of those models walk through step 11 of the Attack Main Sequence together. So they all get to destroyed together and then they all get to removed from the table together.

I believe the answer to the potential followup question, "When does a model leave its unit?" is when it is 'After it is removed from play or removed from the table', simply due to the existence of "When a model in this unit is destroyed or removed from play ..." rules like Vengeance.

If that's the case, then it doesn't matter whether you try to destroy the stitch thrall grunt "first" or "last", the other two models are still getting destroyed within 5" of the destroyed grunt so the necrosurgeon would get the tokens.

WolfpackEE
03-03-2012, 11:36 AM
So basically I've seen one post saying no corpses are collected and one that says they are, haha. I don't have a 'dog in the hunt', I just want to play it correctly.

Uratoh
03-03-2012, 11:36 AM
Ya, I think I'll agree on the 'they get the corpses'. I forgot that it's not being destroyed that takes it off the table.

WolfpackEE
03-03-2012, 11:41 AM
Ok, I kinda got lost in the explanation, but I'll play it that even if a stitch is destroyed during a simultaneous attack, other living things and mechanithralls destroyed in the same attack will have their corpses collected by the neurosurgeon

Uratoh
03-03-2012, 11:45 AM
I'll break it down with the chart on page 245 of Prime. step 5/6 of Damage Application.

5: If the model is still boxed, it is destroyed. resolve effects triggered by a model being destroyed.

6: Remove the destroyed model from the table, then return to the main sequence.

Models are not removed from the table when they become destroyed. as all Simultaneous attacks go down the steps at the same time, none of the stitch thralls have been removed from the table when destroyed effects check.

WolfpackEE
03-03-2012, 11:51 AM
Thanks Uratoh. That makes perfect sense.

Leo_the_Rat
03-03-2012, 12:29 PM
So, the stitch thrall can collect a token for its own soul as well?

solkan
03-03-2012, 12:32 PM
So, the stitch thrall can collect a token for its own soul as well?

Nope, a model can't be used to collect its own token because it's by default not within X" of itself.

From page 30 of Prime Mk II, where the behavior of within and completely within are defined:

Unless the spell or ability says otherwise, however, that model is not considered within the distance itself.

But two stitch thralls A & B within 5" of each other, and they got destroyed simultaneously, then the necrosurgeon would get to collect A's token due to A's proximity to B and get to collect B's token due to B's proximity to A.

Edit: Or, at least they would if they were actually living models or mechanithralls. But, as pointed out later, they're not so they don't generate corpse tokens for the necrosurgeon.

RedWynd
03-03-2012, 01:55 PM
A simultaneous attack is resolved before applying inactive player effects, I believe. An earlier post (https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?59882-Stitch-thralll-dieing-to-blast-at-same-time-as-mechthrall) references this and provides an answer in the negative as well,.

Also note that a stitch thrall does not generate a corpse token, as the Body Snatcher ability only references Mechanithralls and living models, of which stitch thralls (and brute thralls) are neither.

solkan
03-03-2012, 04:50 PM
A simultaneous attack is resolved before applying inactive player effects, I believe. An earlier post (https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?59882-Stitch-thralll-dieing-to-blast-at-same-time-as-mechthrall) references this and provides an answer in the negative as well,.


Your first sentence is wrong. There is no relation between the timing.

And, for the record, Juckto's response in that thread is incorrect because he's misquoting Appendix A. He has it quoted as specifying "completely resolve all damage before ..." when what it says is "completely resolve all attack and damage rolls before ...".

AshenFang
03-03-2012, 05:13 PM
A simultaneous attack is resolved before applying inactive player effects, I believe. An earlier post (https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?59882-Stitch-thralll-dieing-to-blast-at-same-time-as-mechthrall) references this and provides an answer in the negative as well,.

Also note that a stitch thrall does not generate a corpse token, as the Body Snatcher ability only references Mechanithralls and living models, of which stitch thralls (and brute thralls) are neither.
While this is correct on the Stitch thralls, doesn't the fact that the Brute Thrall having the term 'Mechanithrall' in it's lable under it's name count it as a Mechanithrall for any game effects that specifically interact with Mechanithralls (i.e. Body Snatcher)

juckto
03-03-2012, 06:41 PM
Juckto's response in that thread is incorrect
Huh. So it is.

JosephKerr
03-04-2012, 01:05 PM
So just to clarify, a stitch thrall that is Destroyed can collect tokens before being removed from the table? The timing makes sense though this contradicts the sticky in the Cryx forum which unfortunately references the same Appendix A to state that they don't get the tokens. As I don't play with Cryx, only against, I've been following the new players rules in the forums so yeah, I'm confused! :)
Common Mistakes Regarding Cryx Models and Abilities:
https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?85101-Common-mistakes-regarding-Cryx-models-and-abilities-v3

WolfpackEE
03-04-2012, 05:23 PM
From that stickied thread

A stitch thrall that is killed by the same attack as a Mechanithrall (caught in the same AOE for instance) may not collect the corpse token, because they both died at the same time. (See Appendix A, resolving simultaneous effects and triggering special rules).

And here I thought the riddle was solved...guess not :-)

zeezok
03-08-2012, 07:30 AM
Also note that a stitch thrall does not generate a corpse token, as the Body Snatcher ability only references Mechanithralls and living models, of which stitch thralls (and brute thralls) are neither.

I wanted to weigh in on this the other day but I didn't have my books available nor the time to do it until now, so here goes...

Brute Thralls are Mechanithralls and they do generate their own corpse token. Their card reads "Cryx Mechanithrall Weapon Attachment" so they are indeed considered Mechanithralls.

Also, I believe that the corpse token(s) actually will be collected by a destroyed Stitch Thrall because on Appendix A, Step 11 of Apply all Damage within the subset on step 5 when a model is destroyed it reads "Resolved [SIC] effects triggered by a model being destroyed" and not until step 6 does it say "Remove the destroyed model from the table..."

Since the Body Snatcher ability says "...gains one corpse token each time a Mechanithrall or living model is destroyed within 5" of it or a Grunt..." and the Stitch Thrall is still in play when models are destroyed those corpse tokens should be gained during Step 5 of Damage Application just before models are removed during Step 6. All of this is from pg 245 of Prime (except the Body Snatcher which is on the card), I think that a purple response would be best but from what I can tell it looks like we actually would get the tokens (even though that's weird to me).

poeticruse
03-08-2012, 10:03 AM
If that's the case, then it doesn't matter whether you try to destroy the stitch thrall grunt "first" or "last", the other two models are still getting destroyed within 5" of the destroyed grunt so the necrosurgeon would get the tokens.

Solkan has the correct answer. Further discussion was just discussion and got very derailed, which is why the infernal team stayed out.

Asking for infernal confirmation makes us grouchy, especially when a correct answer and rules reference was given in post 7, quoted above.